+++Q&A with Jared Tendler!!+++

Hi, if you're still answering these i'd like to share my problem. It's been a lonnngg time since I was tilt susceptible, but I recently started playing Hyper HU SnGs, which are incredibly high variance. It's not so much the size of the swings that tilt me, more the prolonged nature of my recent runbad.

I've been breaking even most days and then losing a lot other days, needless to say it's getting very frustrating, and on my losing days I find myself starting to get really angry with nothing/no one in particular when I have moderate runbad. I guess this is the bottled up tilt you talk about in your book.

The thing is, I don't know how to fix it because you state you have to think of what is actually making you angry/tilted. The problem here is that I don't know, I understand logically everything about variance, and some days I can easily take -20BI days because it's just the nature of the game, hey i'll have a +20BI day tomorrow probably, however recently due to a lack of any significant winning days/sessions I just get tilted at really trivial things.

Any advice?

Originally posted by JaredTendler

Originally posted by poketingaces

Originally posted by JaredTendler

Originally posted by poketingaces
hi jared,
i find myself always being satisfied and losing motivation to continue grinding once i have won a certain amount. it doesnt matter what volume or stakes i was playing to get that amount but whenever i hit that x amount in winnings i decide to call it a day. any thoughts on this?

thank you.

For example, do you lock up a win because if you're up say 4BI and then you end up break-even on the day, you'll be tilting your face off. In this case, locking up a win, not only locks up the money, it avoids the potential for tilt.

Its funny you say that because yesterday only i had a session where i was playing 6-8 tables and was up 4.5 buyins and was about 4 buyins short of that x amount and i was surely gnna quit if i hit it. then i lost most of it back and was really frustrated and spewed some more before realizing i was playing like a monkey.

How did this pattern start? How long has it been going on for? Why do you want to break it? What are your goals in poker - short and long-term?

i dont really have any short term goals except just moving up. Long term goal is to play the biggest games one day. But i know i have some big mental problems on moving up. i play 50NL even though i have 100+ buyins for it. as long as i can remember i have been very conservative with BR, even when i was playing 5 NL i had 100 buyins for it. And i feel its not the ideal way of playing since like u said i am playing too much in my comfort zone.

Moving up is a good goal, but the real question is how. It doesn't seem like you have a plan for it, and without a plan or an idea of how to do it, you're just randomly going about playing. Or perhaps your plan centers around money, which means that your focus on making money makes perfect sense. Except, that while it may be money that gives you the chance to move up, it's your skill and ability to improve your skill over time that will allow you stay there, crush, and move up again.

With your focus centered around results, you're missing what's really causally connected with long-term success: Skill.

I also wonder if there are some hidden fears of failure that may be undermining your efforts here. That would explain your strong connection to results, as people who struggle with this often have their fears eased by focusing on results because results are easier to know and quantify. Skill is harder and creates more unknowns. With more unknown, there's more potential for fears to be exaggerated.

I say this mostly to just to get you thinking. Ultimately, your ability to make sustainable mental game progress will depend on your ability to accurately assess the problem.

What do you think?

very nice post sir.

Moving up is a good goal, but the real question is how. It doesn't seem like you have a plan for it, and without a plan or an idea of how to do it, you're just randomly going about playing.

you are spot on.

whenever i run bad i seem to lose a lot of confidence which affects my volume and i am pretty sick of it. everytime i cash out instead of moving up i am thinking this is the last time. i know that confidence and skill go hand in hand but it has been going on for so long that it makes me question my goals.

basically i fear going broke and have nothing to show for all the time i put into learning this game.

this is whats been happening : i beat one limit < move up <get owned/run bad <cash out move down. rinse repeat.

would you attribute this to just lack of confidence or something else?

Greetings to all.

First I'd like to thank PokerStrategy.com and Jared for this great thread.

Recently, I've noticed that there is a big leak on my game: lack of discipline.
Besides all strategical mistakes, what makes my bankroll go down - or not to grow as expected - is my lack of self-discipline.

I've read (not studied, yet) all psychology articles. Many of them are about being disciplined and its importance. What I didn't find, or I didn't interpreted as such, was how to become more disciplined and how to keep the right level of discipline.

As I couldn't find these answers I've tried to think by my self.

First, I tried to find out if there were any differences between the sessions where I was more profitable/made more right plays and the ones where I did not.
I think I found two problems: tiredness and motivation to make my bankroll grow, instead of motivation to make the right plays.
On the sessions where my motivation was to win $, my actions where really bizarre and nonsense. In some plays I came across asking my self Why did you call with that hand?, Why did you try to bluff that CS?.
In short, I made plays I "knew" to be wrong.
Could this motivation be the reason why I'm not being disciplined or could it be something more out there?

I also have a few more questions:
1. What is the cause (or causes) for lack of discipline in poker?
2. From your own personal experience, do you think this is one of the most common leaks in poker players?
3. What are the steps to become disciplined and keep being it?

Thanks in advance.

Originally posted by muumionu

Originally posted by JaredTendler

Originally posted by muumionu
Hey Jared,

My problem might sound weird but, when I do something wrong like make a mistake on poker I get this thing in my throat which makes me feel bad and makes me not play my A game. I also get this bad feeling in my throat when I do something wrong in real life, like cross street on wrong spot or something. I had this problem gone for few months (when I didn't play poker) but now it has come back. I'm 19 years old and healthy. It's all good if you don't know what to do about it, I'm not expecting you to know. Thanks a lot for making this thread and finding solutions for people.

I've been doing this long enough to know that nothing is weird. People are all unique and often react differently to common issues.

First off, if the thing in your throat makes you play badly, I suspect the main reason that it does, is because it's a distraction and because you've learned to associate that feeling with bad play. It's a trigger and that trigger brings up history where you've played worse with the feeling.

Having emotion be experienced in the body is common. Some are more sensitive in their experience of it than others, and I suspect that you have strong awareness.

The thing that I'm most interested in understanding more about what you think about mistakes, or doing something wrong. Can you share a bit about your opinion of mistakes, what you think about them, etc? I'm looking to see if there are ways to improve your perspective, and I suspect that if we're able to improve your perspective the impact of the thing in your throat will decrease. I'm not saying it'll go away, but the trigger will be defused. It'll be there, but instead of causing you problems, it'll instead be a reminder to take action to correct your perspective and work your way back towards playing well.

The mistakes I make in poker can be fixed of course, but in real life the things that cause this throat thing are so little and nonsense, like after having a little argue with friend or have an angry bus driver shout some crap- possibly because I'm afraid, or something similar to being afraid.

The mistakes in poker and in life can be fixed, but as long as your improving you're going to make mistakes. So it's important to improve how you're handling mistakes - especially if it possibly is contributing to the thing in your throat and causes you to play worse.

What do you think you're afraid of?

Originally posted by VBlue
Hi Jared.

I am currently reading The Mental Game of Poker and have had a little communication with you previously through another forum.

The two areas that have stood out for me so far do not concern tilt, but concern motivation and approach to the game.

I play, mainly due to time constraints, weekly online (one or two 4 hour MTT sessions - two-tabling), and less often live (fortnightly/monthly). I have put work into areas of my game but been unable to consistently commit over the longer term. I do find that I go so far with a particular subject - such as working on ICM, fundamentals, MTT strategy, but then fail to follow through and get the most out of what I have learned.

I also tend to find myself treating poker as recreational time as much as anything and typically am listening to music, social networking, chatboxing, etc. Current decent results, despite not always making the most optimal plays, perhaps nurtures this attitude further.

I want to lose the distractions and focus on my game in the short time I do get to play and I want to split my time between playing and improving, although I too often fall into the trap of only playing due to the short sessions I have available to me.

I am taking a lot from the section on ALM and Inchworm and when I do get around to putting in work on my game I do follow these processes. I am also taking some good advice from Nick Wealthall's videos ensuring that you view poker as fun and challenging.

I would very much appreciate any direction or insights you can give me to help me move forward.

Kind regards

Mark

Hi Mark,

If I'm understanding correctly, you want to:

1) Develop a consistent approach to learning that you can stick with over the long-term.
2) Eliminate distractions while playing.

Add anything if I've missed it or anything else comes to mind.

Couple questions for you:

1) What are your overall goals with poker?
2) What's the reason your motivated by these poker goals? (Basically the why you want to achieve them.)
3) Why are you motivated to develop a consistent approach to learning?
4) Why are you motivated to eliminate distractions while playing?
5) What do you want to get out of poker, and from doing this extra work to improve?

The reason I'm asking these questions is to tap into your underlying motivations for accomplishing these goals/tasks. When making improvement with focus or motivation, it's helpful to answer these kinds of questions so you know why you're going to work hard to improve, rather than just continue to do what currently comes easy. With the answers written out, you can use them to Inject Goals/Motivation, just as I suggest Injecting Logic in the book. The difference here is that you're using the reminder for why you want your goal to tap into your motivation and find a boost of energy to push yourself to be more focused or to study when you'd rather play.

Make sense?

Best,
Jared

Originally posted by Ickki
I have problems tilting after playing for a while, especially when I'm down in that session. Would you recommend removing the stats BB/100 from the HUD for that reason? I have problems stopping play if I'm not up, and usually my play gets worse after around 500 hands.

Do you have any suggestions for dealing with this sort of tilt?

If you're serious about solving this problem, I suggest trying to dig a bit deeper into to find out why you tilt from losing. Removing the BB/100 stat could help, but just doing that alone sounds more like a band-aid on the problem, rather than a lasting solution.

I'm happy to help you dig into the problem, it's not overly complex, and just takes more work in the short-term. But, the long-term benefits are that you're in more control of your mental game. We can start by having you answer a couple questions:

1) What is it about losing that you hate or pisses you off?
2) What are some of the things that you say to yourself, outloud, or in chat?
3) What's the first sign that you're tilting - before it's a big problem?
4) How long has this been a problem? When did it start?
5) Is this a problem outside of poker?

Feel free to post anything else that comes to mind. I'll post more thoughts to help you break the cause down once I know more.

Thanks for your reply Jared.

Food for thought indeed. In my next study session, I am going to commit some time to answering those questions you posed to me.

I'll reply back following.

Kind regards

Mark

Originally posted by Wriggers
Hi, if you're still answering these i'd like to share my problem. It's been a lonnngg time since I was tilt susceptible, but I recently started playing Hyper HU SnGs, which are incredibly high variance. It's not so much the size of the swings that tilt me, more the prolonged nature of my recent runbad.

I've been breaking even most days and then losing a lot other days, needless to say it's getting very frustrating, and on my losing days I find myself starting to get really angry with nothing/no one in particular when I have moderate runbad. I guess this is the bottled up tilt you talk about in your book.

The thing is, I don't know how to fix it because you state you have to think of what is actually making you angry/tilted. The problem here is that I don't know, I understand logically everything about variance, and some days I can easily take -20BI days because it's just the nature of the game, hey i'll have a +20BI day tomorrow probably, however recently due to a lack of any significant winning days/sessions I just get tilted at really trivial things.

Any advice?

Could you answer mine please?

Thanks a lot, Jared!

I've taken out the BB/100 stat, but as you said, that hasn't really solved the problem.

Originally posted by JaredTendler
1) What is it about losing that you hate or pisses you off?

When I lose I feel like I've not only wasted money, but also time and wish I'd never even had played that session.

Originally posted by JaredTendler
2) What are some of the things that you say to yourself, outloud, or in chat?

I never use the chat, maybe once in a while slam my fist, or tell myself what an Idiot I am for calling down someone light or bluff shoving with trash.

Originally posted by JaredTendler
3) What's the first sign that you're tilting - before it's a big problem?

I lose and then often start playing looser or going on autopilot.

Originally posted by JaredTendler
4) How long has this been a problem? When did it start?

Probably as long as I've been playing poker.

Originally posted by JaredTendler
5) Is this a problem outside of poker?

Unfortunately, so. Sometimes I focus too much on what's already happened and cannot be changed, instead of accepting that and making the most out of it.

Hi Mark,

If I'm understanding correctly, you want to:

1) Develop a consistent approach to learning that you can stick with over the long-term.
2) Eliminate distractions while playing.

Add anything if I've missed it or anything else comes to mind.

Couple questions for you:

1) What are your overall goals with poker?
2) What's the reason your motivated by these poker goals? (Basically the why you want to achieve them.)
3) Why are you motivated to develop a consistent approach to learning?
4) Why are you motivated to eliminate distractions while playing?
5) What do you want to get out of poker, and from doing this extra work to improve?

The reason I'm asking these questions is to tap into your underlying motivations for accomplishing these goals/tasks. When making improvement with focus or motivation, it's helpful to answer these kinds of questions so you know why you're going to work hard to improve, rather than just continue to do what currently comes easy. With the answers written out, you can use them to Inject Goals/Motivation, just as I suggest Injecting Logic in the book. The difference here is that you're using the reminder for why you want your goal to tap into your motivation and find a boost of energy to push yourself to be more focused or to study when you'd rather play.

Make sense?

Best,
Jared

Jared - firstly thank you very much for giving your time to reply. It is hugely appreciated.

In response, and if you have any further to comment I am again grateful:

1) My overall realistic goals in poker are (and I want to use the SMART acronym in my reply) - to commit 10 hours per week with 8 hours playing time and 2 hours study time. This goal is non-monetary but focuses on what I can control which is my commitment and refers to the 80/20 rule of play/study. A secondary goal in 2013 is to look for half-a-dozen live UK tournaments and commit some playing time and bankroll to satellites or direct buy-in if bankroll allows. I am keen to experience some of the bigger live events, but I also want to target those which are affordable (buy-in/travel/expenses considered) and where I think the softer competition will be.

2) I think there are three main reasons why I want to achieve these goals, but the second and third probably more accurately answer question 3. The first is purely financial. I think I am intelligent enough, with the right commitment to improve, to make a decent income from what is essentially a hobby.

3) The second reason then being I enjoy playing, but I get a lot more enjoyment when I combine playing with improving my game. Thirdly, as I have already mentioned, I think this type of focus and approach will rub off on me and motivate me to work on towards some other goals in my personal life.

4) This is tougher to answer. I guess I am motivated to avoid distractions because when I am distracted I am not really playing poker primarily. What I am doing is killing time in the evenings and probably using poker, social networking, web surfing, listening to tunes online, as a little bit of escapism. What I want to do is to be more productive with my time and achieve a goal(s). Being distracted leaves me feeling unsatisfied as I never know whether I have given my best and I can always have that to fall back on if my results fall short or I make mistakes (I wasn't giving it my full attention so....).

5) To summarise then, I want to achieve financial gain from playing poker, I want to get the enjoyment from playing poker and seeing my game grow through focused and committed learning, I want the sense of achievement that comes from the improvement in my game, and finally I want this to be habit forming and to be an attitude I can take into other areas of my life.

Not asking too much then.

I'm sure there will be all sorts of different reactions to this. Maybe some people will say why not just get on with improving the other things in your life that you want to and forget about the poker. Some people might think this is all a bit of nonsense. Some people might nod and agree with parts of it.

I'd love to hear other opinions, whatever they are. I don't really mind baring my soul a little from time to time and I'm big and ugly enough to take others' opinions in return.

http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/psychology/2101/1/

Just came across this. Further food for thought and action.

What is a good way to say calm while playing poker?

prime - my non-expert response would be to consider some of the following:

What causes you to not feel calm? When does this happen?
What is the outcome when you are not calm?
Why do you feel it is important to remain calm?

You might start to recognise patterns, accumulation over time of little things that become bigger things, that there are differing levels of not feeling calm that have differing effects, and to get you to focus on what will be different if you can overcome these feelings (if indeed they are having a negative impact).

What do you think Jared? Is this a decent stab at some amateur psychology?

hey jared,

i really appreciate this thread, It´s a great idea ♦

I have a bad habit, if i come close to the emotional threshold you mentioned, i start eating even if i sit at the tables and even if i´m actually not hungry before beeing upset, it actually rises my emotion because i´m distracted and this makes me even more upset, but i can´t help myself. I mean most of the times i´m aware about my state of mind and my emotions but in the moment i feel like it would calm down the emotions. It sounds silly i know and the final solution is probably "stay away from the emotional threshold by working with your mental game" or something like this, but it´s obviously easier said then done. Just hope u can give me one or two advices or maybe u can tell me if this is some deeper problem. Thanks a lot

hello Jared!

great thread! just reading through it has made me a better person, not only regarding poker but other areas of life as well

i feel like i have huge issues with accumulated emotion.

when i'm "running fine" i can take bad beats and coolers like it's nothing, but if it happens "too much" in a short period of time i just break down and have a very tough time to recover.
even if i stop the session and come back the next day or whatever, when i play again just losing as little as 30bb in a pot already makes me get very near my emotional threshold and obviously it quickly goes downhill from there.
the fact that i know that i am tilting or borderline tilting adds to further tilt

i get to the point where i don't know how much bad play is mixed into the bad run and just thinking about playing generates anxiety.
when sitting down i have severe doubts on whether i can even play profitably, even though i know that i have the skills and beat the limits that i play over a fair sample. this is exactly like a certain paragraph you wrote on your book.

when i'm on these phases almost all forms of tilt gets strong pretty quickly, injustice tilt, hate losing tilt, mistake tilt, entitlement tilt.
nowadays i can quit my way out of desperation tilt (wee, i improved on that) and i don't have much on revenge tilt, i rarely hold hard feelings for anyone ♦
however quitting hurts volume, and sometimes i "need" to go on playing for some reason.

the "cheap cures" are either something like a week break or a few days of running good. of course though it's much harder to "run good" when tilt is always just one big pot around the corner.

so what can i do?
i know when i am tilting, i know when i am borderline tilting, but when there is enough accumulated emotion i get to tilt point so fast that it's like i shouldn't play at all anymore.
i try to inject some logic but then "anything" brings out that strong accumulated emotion and i feel overwhelmed.

Originally posted by Tomaloc
hello Jared!

great thread! just reading through it has made me a better person, not only regarding poker but other areas of life as well

i feel like i have huge issues with accumulated emotion.

when i'm "running fine" i can take bad beats and coolers like it's nothing, but if it happens "too much" in a short period of time i just break down and have a very tough time to recover.
even if i stop the session and come back the next day or whatever, when i play again just losing as little as 30bb in a pot already makes me get very near my emotional threshold and obviously it quickly goes downhill from there.
the fact that i know that i am tilting or borderline tilting adds to further tilt

i get to the point where i don't know how much bad play is mixed into the bad run and just thinking about playing generates anxiety.
when sitting down i have severe doubts on whether i can even play profitably, even though i know that i have the skills and beat the limits that i play over a fair sample. this is exactly like a certain paragraph you wrote on your book.

when i'm on these phases almost all forms of tilt gets strong pretty quickly, injustice tilt, hate losing tilt, mistake tilt, entitlement tilt.
nowadays i can quit my way out of desperation tilt (wee, i improved on that) and i don't have much on revenge tilt, i rarely hold hard feelings for anyone ♦
however quitting hurts volume, and sometimes i "need" to go on playing for some reason.

the "cheap cures" are either something like a week break or a few days of running good. of course though it's much harder to "run good" when tilt is always just one big pot around the corner.

so what can i do?
i know when i am tilting, i know when i am borderline tilting, but when there is enough accumulated emotion i get to tilt point so fast that it's like i shouldn't play at all anymore.
i try to inject some logic but then "anything" brings out that strong accumulated emotion and i feel overwhelmed.

+1 I have this exact same thing! Like a couple standard losses like AA vs JJ etc will be fine, I can easily shrug it off. Buuuuut, every now and then there will be a string of people winning with 2 outers 1 outers, even nothing but runner runner draws that hit, and a session full of these is enough to instantly transform poker into a sort of bad zone. It must be like a bottling of past beats, because when the triggering shitstorm of suckouts hits I just insta-snap into this mode.

It literally makes poker feel like a completely different, dark overwhelming place where nothing I do matters and I am destined to lose, like a dark cloud is hovering over my poker and all I can do is keep playing and hope that it goes away. Instead of just thinking of the hands as isolated incidents, I believe its like a period of poker injustice, and now the standard bad beats start to confirm this too, whereas its probable that if this perception wasn't there and I was just playing my A-game instead, the 'cloud' of poker badness would be over, and these would just be the standard beats I shrug off daily. Maybe I don't shrug them off as well as I think I do at the time, maybe I bottle them up till the big ones let it all out.

EDIT: I'm there again. Half the money I won last month is undone in 1 day of sick downswing, in 100k hands, never ever had the opposite happen, where I'm this far above ev...

Posting to follow.

Hey Jared,

kinda read the whole thread and really took me a couple of hours reading all your answers and overall conversations. I would say by now that this thread became some sort of mental book.Lets call it a FAQ.
I m aware there are similar questions as the one I m gonna ask one but I didnt spot anyone thinking the same.
If I honest to myself I never liked accepting some general rules of thumb or stereotypical thoughts, for example poker wise it would be ''tight is right''. I simply hate this and I m really kinda into proving it wrong. I m currently playing NL50 FR where games become even more nittier, like people dont have bluffing range multiway. So I transit from nitty to a bit of loose maniac player. I have a constant feeling that I have to run the table over so i can prove myself that 'tight is not right'. So here comes my problems that i face:
1) I can stick to my plan(from the point on I take the initiative I have pretty much a plan which I suddenly change because I talk myself into it and I hate myself for this)
2) I kinda have a problem in adapting my game when my opponents adopt their game to mine(I cant tighten up anymore and it really made me think that I again can t follow my plan. I m aware I have to do it but in some sort of way it is kinda always overtaking me).

Let me know if I wasnt clear enough.

Best regards,

Sasha

Originally posted by Helipacter
Okay, this question could be a bit fluffy:

What tips/tools/advice can you offer a player that is tilting, knows it, but won't leave the table. (Fortunately, it doesn't happen so often to me, but when it does it's like a tractor beam, and all roads lead to to the kingdom of Busto.)

In my experience, the following scenarios have occurred:

1) I normally set myself a hand limit for the session (say 200), on hand 180 I get a bad beat, and I feel the evil rise. After a while I "wake up" on, say, hand 300. I realise that I've spent the passed 120 hands wishing cancer on the guy whilst still trying to recoup some losses, but I cannot leave the table.

2) If I get one-outed by some bum, I immediately leave the table and say "no poker for 24hours". Two hours later I'm back at my desk raging at the world.

I'm fully aware that I know I'm steaming (temples pulsing), but I can't snap out of it.

So, long story short, how does a person get their mind off a bad session whilst still in a tilt-funk?

Cheers

I really could not have put it better Helipacter... spot on :-)

Ji Jared,

Great thread with some very though provoking answers.

I am fairly new to the whole 'more than fun' poker and have invested in a HUD and have decided to look a little bit closer at my play as a whole.

I would really like to start playing more than one table and I have recently started adding another table (ame I know but we all have to start somewhere)

I read the article you wrote on Multi-Tabling and about how we should treat our minds like a muscle so to speak- in the sense that we need to build the strength rather than expect the strenght to be there straight away. Also with regards to resting as so the 'muscles' can reform and not becomne overworked.

Is there any general tips you can give around multi-tabling, I was thinking about-

CASH OR TOURNEY Best (STT/MTT)
Full ring or 6 MAX?
TURBO / NORMAL?
STT SNG or MTT? IF MTT are we talking 30/45/180 or More?
What style of play? Should I play TAG to ensure I play less hands?
Is there any point in using a HUD?

I also think I may have a little bit of a problem mentally in the sense that I like to see the outcome of the hand which I think becomes difficult the more tables you play?

Like I say I am very early stages and any gudance would be very helpful around both the practical and mental side of multi tabling.

Thanks Jared.... Great thread.