BB defend vs BTN minr

If I tighten the filters I get way less hands, so the best of the current filter are the most frequent here

811 seen flops times 50bb/100hands room for error means I could have lost 4 buyins more on those 800 seen flops and still had a clear +EV calling game. So seems fair to say that it's very likely my K6o Q7o calls are showing a profit.

way to derail the thread, this was the top winner hand on last 100 of those, had to lol

thats why he's the best.

All hail internet the king of the big blind

Originally posted by lnternet

If I tighten the filters I get way less hands, so the best of the current filter are the most frequent here

811 seen flops times 50bb/100hands room for error means I could have lost 4 buyins more on those 800 seen flops and still had a clear +EV calling game. So seems fair to say that it's very likely my K6o Q7o calls are showing a profit.

dont get what youve done here. can u explain?

Q2 hand: man you cant miss an opportunity to pullout a triple c/r - even if it makes nosense.
x/r turn seems spew.

Originally posted by imfromsweden007
I would say this is a good framework for what to defend versus somebody who minraises more than 50% of buttons. Then adjust accordingly if they open more respectively less.

edit: Normally 96o is a power house call (together with some weaker Kxo and suited hands), but tried to cut it down since not everyone might feel comfortable playing this range + might be -ev at lower stakes where rake plays a bigger roll in small pots. But yeah, maybe remove 54o instead if you want to play a tighter range.

edit2: oh and with regards what to call and 3bet, just 3bet some of the weaker hands you don't feel comfortable calling with, both suited and offsuit hands + together with most stronger broadways. I won't spoonfeed you even more into saying exact how to construct your 3betting range but it's not super hard - just take a little bit of this and little bit of that and woop - you'll have a well balanced soup of a range

Wow, this is pretty wide in 6max.
I have already talked with many ppl bout this and indeed you should defend a lot vs. 2x-BTN-steals when the BTN opens kinda wide (like 60%+).
But Im more at 50% which I defend as a default vs unknown reg (with infos this might change) - 35% I call here and 15% I 3bet.

Your range seems kinda wide - which % of it you coldcall as default and which you 3bet as default?
What is the worst value-3b pre?
What are the worst hands you`d coldcall as default?

How this all changes vs. 2,5x BTN and 3x-BTN?

Vs, something like 2,25x-Button I personally defend almost the same like vs. a minraise... what you think bout this?

Haha, well 2.2x is almost 2.0x so I guess defending almost the same sounds about right I probably 3bet about 10% as a default, and then just call the rest. Worst 3bet value hand is hard to say, it really depends if they are they type to 4bet or fold, or if they call a lot in position. Versus a complete unknown I guess like AQo. I like to call almost everything by default and then start 3betting depending on the opponent. Worst hands I call by default is probably the worst hand you can find in blue. It gradually gets tigther as his raise size gets bigger, i'm not sure on the exact % for each different raise size though.

I'm a bit lost when choosing hands to 3bet bluff with BB vs a BTN miniraise. Part of me wants to 3bet hands that I don't really want to call with, but in this particular spot, since we can call so wide, those hands will play really badly and I face problems when BTN plays well when calling my 3bet, so for that reason I'm not sure if 3betting a more merged range won't show a higher EV.

Of course we can't 3bet x% of hands and call hands below that because it will be impossible to play some boards if we do this, what I'm talking about is more like 3betting hands with good playability some % of the time and calling the same hands the rest of the time.

Thoughts?

Originally posted by imfromsweden007
Haha, well 2.2x is almost 2.0x so I guess defending almost the same sounds about right I probably 3bet about 10% as a default, and then just call the rest. Worst 3bet value hand is hard to say, it really depends if they are they type to 4bet or fold, or if they call a lot in position. Versus a complete unknown I guess like AQo. I like to call almost everything by default and then start 3betting depending on the opponent. Worst hands I call by default is probably the worst hand you can find in blue. It gradually gets tigther as his raise size gets bigger, i'm not sure on the exact % for each different raise size though.

Thx gor answering man!

What Im looking for is a default which is considered as solid vs. an unknwon REG at the start.

For instance ppl say that in HU it is solid to defend vs. BTN/SB-Minraise round 70%, where you 3b 20% and coldcall 50%.
Where your value-3b-range is something like 9%:

An info-less-default might hence be:
http://imgur.com/MmPKKT0
those are 51% for the coldcallrange

http://imgur.com/BuP4fQQ
those are 21% for 3b-range

Of course,
when you then have some info, then you would adust.
For instance when vilalin calls a lot of 3bets, then you expand your value-3bet-range and throw some trash-3bet out of your range, but coldcall preflop the next best hands which you have not coldcalled before...

I think to have such default is important in order to have a startingpoint - from this startingpoint you then can deviate systematically and try to exploit villains at best...

Hence I rly would appreciate to have such a starting-default (vs. completely unknown Reg) as well for 6max in one of the most common spot, namely BTNvsBB and here exspecially vs. BTN-Minraises or close to BTN-Minraises (<2,5x)

edit:
btw.,
Im also interested in how you adust your defendrange regards to how wide you defend when youre deep (150BB+)?
Have heard many times that playing deep OOP is obv. not as great cause fundamentally position is even more powerful the deeper you are, so do we tighten up?
What bout ante-deep-games?
Isn`t here tightening up deep OOP a prob cause you would have to pay so much antes longterm without seeing flops...?

Originally posted by imfromsweden007
Sure, but only have 100k hands or so (so basiclly insignificant sample, since it's then only like 10-15k hands from the BB), and I definitely make a lot mistakes postflop as well (just as everyone). But in the big blind my lossrate is -41bb/100, not sure what's average or whatnot, but I guess if you just fold every big blind it's going to be -100bb/100. So recouperating 60% of my big blind at least in 6 handed.

.

iirc -20PTBB/100 or -40bb/100 are cosnsidered as "solid" standard at 6max.
And -15 PTBB/100 or -30bb/100 are considered as the rly top-rates from the BB.

In SB it is the same, other than you have halve those numbers.

I have this info from one of Alan Jackson`s Vid-series at BFP and imo we can trust him cause his main focus-area are database-stuff and he reviewd likely thousands of those....

Good stuff here, so I've started defending wider my BB v Bu in my last session. ♦

Originally posted by pleno1
thats why he's the best.

This. ♦.

So guys, now you've said which hands we should not fold but how do we decide wheter Q8o or 45s or something is going into out 3b/bluffrange or in our flattingrange?

@Iron: the major issue 150bb+ is just to inflate the pot oop with future spr's > 8-10.
dont think its a major issue to CALL vs his minr - its not like he will overbet 6x the pot ott or sth.
Id (call) defend more in an antes games for pot odds reasons.

@Farmachist: ifs talked abt this a lot. just depends a lot on villains reaction to 3bet. dont ever think q8o is a 3bet. 45s vs v fof villain; its kinda bad vs guys who like to peel vs 3bets.

Originally posted by BC1989RF
@Iron: the major issue 150bb+ is just to inflate the pot oop with future spr's > 8-10.
dont think its a major issue to CALL vs his minr - its not like he will overbet 6x the pot ott or sth.
Id (call) defend more in an antes games for pot odds reasons.

so you would defend deep-stacked in BBvsBTN almost the same like for 100BB effectively and a lil more in antes games?

btw.,
have now developped for myself a startingpoint regards to what I wanna defend BBvsBTN vs Minraises vs. a completely unknown reg (but it is a lil tighter than Imfromseden`s defendrange) - maybe one experienced coach regards to this topic would let me pm him my starting-point-range and could give some criticsm/feedback?

Originally posted by IronPumper
so you would defend deep-stacked in BBvsBTN almost the same like for 100BB effectively and a lil more in antes games?

passive defends yes. id actually call more often since i wont be 3betting AQ, AJ, KQ, KJ stuff that often. although this is an overrated concept imo - theres not that many ppl playing back significantly more once we get 150bb+... at my small stakes at least.

Originally posted by BC1989RF

Originally posted by IronPumper
so you would defend deep-stacked in BBvsBTN almost the same like for 100BB effectively and a lil more in antes games?

passive defends yes. id actually call more often since i wont be 3betting AQ, AJ, KQ, KJ stuff that often. although this is an overrated concept imo - theres not that many ppl playing back significantly more once we get 150bb+... at my small stakes at least.

yeah ok.

though as thumbof rule I think it is alright to3bet less OOP deep and just another range like your very toprange and some stuff like Axs and mb suited BWs as well...

Then you would call a lot deep OOP and hence you should likely also coldcall in some % your toprange OOP being deep...

Thank you so much for this thread! People now call Q2o vs. my minraises and have no clue how to play it post which results in super-dooper misplay.

There is one HUUUGEE point missing in the discussion (mostly because the answers come from mid-high crushers):
You will never ever defend profitably with 65% range vs. a minraise if you do not know how to play your range post (and I bet 80% SSNL regs don't know how to). You will probably lose more calling than folding.

Originally posted by mko101
Thank you so much for this thread! People now call Q2o vs. my minraises and have no clue how to play it post which results in super-dooper misplay.

There is one HUUUGEE point missing in the discussion (mostly because the answers come from mid-high crushers):
You will never ever defend profitably with 65% range vs. a minraise if you do not know how to play your range post (and I bet 80% SSNL regs don't know how to). You will probably lose more calling than folding.

What you mb miss is that when you do not implement it (at least widening a bit your defendrange, not as loose as the one from imfromsweden), then you also will never learn to play a wider rangeOOP in defend-spots and you will develop slower.
Maybe you give soem edge up temporarily by impelemtning this, but you could gain longterm a lot....

It doesn't look like we absolutely must defend this wide to prevent our opponent from profitably stealing with any two. So we maybe could increase our defend ranges gradually as to not get too overwhelmed.

Anyway, so you guys probably never fold vs SB minraise?

Originally posted by IronPumper
What you mb miss is that when you do not implement it (at least widening a bit your defendrange, not as loose as the one from imfromsweden), then you also will never learn to play a wider rangeOOP in defend-spots and you will develop slower.
Maybe you give soem edge up temporarily by impelemtning this, but you could gain longterm a lot....

I did not say to fold 80% to steals.

All I said that most players at SSNL wouldn't be capable of profitably (enough) plying K4o, 73s, T4s. You have to defend wider but that's just unnecessary unless you wanna bleed out money.