Originally posted by biogas
was I to call his all in preflop? if yes, so I call anyway despite missing the flop?
p.s. but it doesnt mean that when some1 calls oop and then donk shove on flop he is playing stop&go, you got to figure out if he is capable of doing S&G to call him light or he is random donkey who hit flop and thats why he shoves
but if you had 2 overcards or PP and you were going to call all in preflop you should call most of the times
Originally posted by Nunki
An old post that I dug up from somewhere. The repondee is a former worlg champ.OP:
Pokerstars NL Hold'em tourney, 200$+15$, 201 entrants, 27 payed. 1st place 1s 11,055$.
40mins into the tourney, Level III,
Blinds at 25$/50$, 154plrs left.Stack size:
Seat 1: (290 in chips)
Seat 2: (4475 in chips)
Seat 3: (1515 in chips) Me
Seat 4: (2205 in chips)
Seat 5: (4205 in chips) Button
Seat 6: (375 in chips) SB
Seat 7: (2200 in chips) BB
Seat 8: (1605 in chips)
Seat 9: (1375 in chips)Folded to mee. I have AKo on the CO and make a standard 5x the BB raise to 250$, Buton re-raised 450$ more to 700$.
Now what?? He has me covered and as position on me. All I know about him is he won a couple pots pre-flop and on the flop by being agressive whit position.
If I fold, I'm left me whit 1,255$ whit blind raising to 50$/100$ soon. Not a hopeless position.
Calling here leaves me whit 815$ to see the flop on a 1,475$ pot whit the blinds, trying to hit an Ace or King. I might call if i had more money to play whit and had position.
Moving-in seem the best option since I get to see 5 cards. And it "annouces" AA, KK or AK. So I now put the pressure on my opponent. If he have a big ace, I'm way ahead. Any PP is a 50/50 shot and he can't be sure I don't have Aces or Kings.
I moved-in, he called whit 88 and I missed. Got busted in 154th.
Was my conclusion correct? I found is calling whit 88 pretty weak but he got away whit it i'm out. Was it too early in the tourney to make such moves considering loose plrs are still in? A friend of mine insist I should have just called but I argued folding was better move then calling in that spot.
What would you have done and why???
thx.Because of your chip count, you are in a tough spot. Given the positions, he can put you on a steal, so AK is too good of a hand to fold here, IMO. I think there are two viable plays, the one you made, and the stop-and-go.
The stop-and-go is to call now, and then bet the flop, even when you miss. This greatly increases your chances of beating a hand just like 88. When the flop comes J52, and you bet all-in, he'll have a tough call to make, as hitting that J or Q or whatever will often look very believable. If you are against AA or KK, you will get called and most likely lose, but that's no worse than getting it all in preflop. If he was playing a weak-mediocre A, and if he would've folded it preflop, then this play is bad if he hits that kicker and calls you postflop. However, in this case, given the size of your all-in compared to the pot, he is potstuck, really, and will probably always call.
The real loss in this play is when he folds a hand like AQ postflop, a hand which you're beating badly enough that you want him to call (the chips you win at risk are worth more than the certain chips if he folds). However, again given the size of your raise, while you want him to call with AQ postflop, you didn't want him to call preflop, and you can't have it both ways (very often).
One thing I would do is raise less preflop. Here you raised 1/6th of your stack. That is an awkward amount. If you had made it T150 preflop, and then got raised to T450 or so, you could've made a substantial reraise and he maybe folds preflop. Also, when you're stealing in the future, it works better if you can do it for less, and if you raise less with your good hands, this will disguise your steals.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Thx Greg, very enlightening reply.
For the records, Here's the board:
FLOP [9c 5c 5h]
TURN [9c 5c 5h] [Qd]
RIVER [9c 5c 5h Qd] [Jh]He would probably have called a "stop-and-go" move on that flop but I understand the superiority of that play over pushing all-in right away. I'll had that weapon to my arsenal.
Thx again!
Since I wasn't there and all, I'm not saying that the stop-and-go was the better play this time. It might have been.
Remember that this play doesn't work if you're not first to act postflop. It also tends to work best when YOU have the small/medium pair, and suspect you're up against AK. One important thing to remember is do NOT change your mind. If you held 88, and the flop was AKQ, it is NOT the time to give up the play. This is when your 88 beat TT, because when you bet out, he'll give you credit for at least one of those cards, and he won't have anywhere near the odds to catch his 4-6 outs.
Three main things for the stop-and-go (at the least the all-in version). First, your hand is too good to fold preflop for the conditions. Second, if you reraise preflop it won't be enough to make them fold. Third, if you bet the flop it will be enough to make them fold if they miss.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
i dont get why you would bet x5 bb CO ? Thats just a scare bet and always when people scare bet its easy to read, most often then not they have AQ , AK there. TT etc.
Maybe iu should adapt and make this bets early on with nothing:D
Would just like to add something about the Stop and Go play, why would it work if ur shortstack vs a bigger stack? . This cant play out good if i push any flop hed likely call if he can both eliminate me and win some:;`?
The Stop & Go play, as described, is certainly a play to consider. I haven't read the whole thread yet, but want to post a few thoughts on the subject anyway.
Poker is about making the best decisions given the information we have. Whenever we make a Stop & Go, we really first make a call. Then we close our eyes and bet. The decision to bet is based on the information we had preflop only. Others have observed this too.
Better yet, as some posters have noted, could be to hold every option open. Subdivide the possible flops into types A, B and C. Whenever the Stop and Go, as the compound [call + unconditional bet], is better than raising preflop, then the play of [call + [bet A type flops , check/call B type flops, check/fold the remaining type C flops]] is at least as good as the Stop & Go.
Of course, one might find that flops of type B or C doesn't exist for certain stack sizes, the opponents range and player type and our perceived range and player type. Or - we ignore them for metagame reasons. Then our play reduces to the original Stop & Go. For other combinations of stacks, etc, they do exist, or nobody would ever check a flop oop after calling a raise for instance.
In order to decide what the correct preflop move (fold/call/raise) is one has to make an ev-calculation and factor in everything. This is probably quite messy, but doable, since the possible flops for each hand in the opponents range are limited to what remains in the deck. Estimates of the probability that he actually folds and the probability that he bets when checked to need to be factored in. Perhaps even an ICM calculation is called for. It might be that we can check and fold and still have chances.
One argument against actually looking at the flop before betting at it is that we would be exploitable if we ever checked and were caught with a monster. That's one more thing to consider, but it sounds pretty puny compared to the possibility of doubling up. As long as we know that they know what we just did we are fine I think.
/Johan = 
