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PLO10 Made nut flush on river on paired board

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ittapiros
Joined: 28.08.2008
Oldschool Grinder

Hi!

In this hand I faced a tough decision on the river. In retrospect I kind of think he was trying to represent what I actually had. I don't think he would c/c 2 streets with a set or 2 pair with such a draw heavy board. He may have had smaller flush... : / Again it may have been a nitty fold. Until I figure out how to export with stats, the fellow's stats are:

VPIP: 44, PFR: 24, 3BET: 13,6 HANDS: 63 AGGF: 2,5

Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 Pot Limit Omaha Cash, 5 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

Hero (MP): $10 (100 bb)
CO: $9.79 (97.9 bb)
BTN: $10 (100 bb)
SB: $10 (100 bb)
BB: $21.09 (210.9 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP with T 2 A Q
Hero raises to $0.35, CO calls $0.35, 2 folds, BB calls $0.25

Flop: ($1.10) 3 2 8 (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.60, CO calls $0.60, BB calls $0.60

Turn: ($2.90) T (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $1.80, CO calls $1.80, BB folds

River: ($6.50) 8 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $6.20, Hero folds

Results:

Spoiler

$6.50 pot ($0.28 rake)
Final Board: 3 2 8 T 8
Hero mucked T 2 A Q and lost (-$2.75 net)
CO mucked and won $6.22 ($3.47 net)


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5 replies
FlyingDutchm1n
Joined: 21.08.2012
PokerStrategist

Hi there! Here I seriously think you layed down the best hand, as it appears to me your opponent is calling your bets to draw. I think he would have never guessed that you had a better flush draw especially not after you checked, it seems that with your check you are "unhappy" about the river and I think you overthought it for a moment there, yes generally they say when the board pairs be careful with your flush (draws) but if he had had a set, he would have had (taken over) the betting momentum in all likeliness, and otherwise like only very strange full houses got there by the river, and although not impossible, I still think it is -EV to check fold here. Bet to get called, but even a bet raise I would call it off, but lower flushes would have probably just called you if you had lead out, but even in this case, being pretty nitty myself, I would not have folded to a raise here anymore either as I dont think a set would have behaved this way over the streets (why wouldnt the set want to charge YOU for your draws?!) and otherwise a superweird 2 pair like top pair on flop to top two on turn to full house on river? Well if so so be it but I would bet call the river even if they raise me here which with a lower flush they probably wouldnt but since you showed no strength and it could have been interpreted as you hated the river, they probably thought their/any flush was good and maybe they didn't even pay attention to the fact that board alsopaired. Riverbet was huge though...


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ittapiros Topic starter
ittapiros
Joined: 28.08.2008
Oldschool Grinder

Yeah, I had a mostly similar feeling, I've came accross this hand while doing a review. I've played this hand a few days prior and probably had no time to think it trough. I think I would bet/call here most often or at least I would lead out. However in my short career so far I seem to find that having more fish and whales on the tables than actual regular players who know that they are doing makes tight play profitable. This is a bit off topic just something I had floating around in my mind, either way I agree with your point and thanks for your answer. : )


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FlyingDutchm1n
Joined: 21.08.2012
PokerStrategist

Yeah I think it is nice to talk to you because it is like reviewing my own behavior at the tables, but then somebody else is doing it : ) I realized everything in life happens in a spectrum you know, and you can be too loose or too nitty, and the optimum, which is dependent on the person, the table, the stakes, the individual opponents, lies somewhere in between. Against player A your optimum should lie here, and against player B somewhere else; yes it is difficult but also keeps it dynamic and interesting.

If I can add something from my own experience, I used to think that just because the board paired and my opponent bet big, this had to mean that either the paired board helped him or at least not fear it because he would see that the board just paired right?? and wouldnt he then have to fear a full house by someone else? But now I realize that it is so important not to just look at the river in a (nitty) vaccuum you know, and be like paired board = throw away nut flush, but you should look if you think it makes sense the way your opponent played up until the point that the board paired if it is likely he made a full house + (it has to be at least a full house for you beat all other hands) and then I would almost always come to the conclusion that the way it was played until the board paired actually made it UNlikely the 8 on the river filled someone up. Your opponent might also have thought that you didn't fill up on river, and he would have been right about that.

Also we should NEVER underestimate what effect our behavior has on that of our opponents... a check on the river will set the door wide open to all kinds of nastiness you know. Try to think what your check will mean to your opponent, and also try to think what your line will be BEFORE you make a move (and not start thinking until after our opponent has already made his move):

will you check fold or check call if you plan on checking, and if so, why??
do you think by checking our opponent will be affected in his behavior as in will our check make him do things he would not dare if we had simply bet into him?
if you lead out, what are you expecting your opponent to do in reaction to our bet?
here betsizing is also important, as a small bet could still get raised by the King high flush.
and lastly if you bet will you still fold if you get raised? or do you consider yourself potcommited after leading out into our opponent?
and why dont we go all in, do we really think we are only going to get called by worse? if you think all lower flushes will fold to an all in and only full house plus hands will call us, then of course you should not donk all in.

Once again when leading out, consider betsizing and be careful with these kind of "bet small so we still have an exit strategy" as they can backfire on us what happened in the KKK example. Sometimes it is good to still have an exit strategy, sometimes, we should not consider an exit (strategy) as a viable option anymore and just go for broke, at least when you do it AFTER you weighed your options, it is most of the times the right thing to do; it is up to you to decide when to do what.

Imagine you had called all in, you would probably be like oh no what if I am beat, until you see like $15 shipped your way and see villain has K high flush and loses hero wins with A high flush and then you are like OMG I almost folded this! : ) As you can tell, you are talking to someone with very similar experiences to yours here.


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ittapiros Topic starter
ittapiros
Joined: 28.08.2008
Oldschool Grinder

Very much indeed. This answer justifies the common belief I think that PLO is a very difficult post flop game first and foremost. So many things to consider... : ) I'm all for that because building a solid edge with hard work might be more profitable than in other game types. I think however in this particular hand position may have been crutial. Posting this hand in the evaluation forum made me realize a whole lot of things to consider about my (and probably some other beginner PLO players) game. In hope of other top notch answers and tips I'll definetly post my trouble spots to the forum in the future.

Again, thank you very much! : )


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Skodljivec
Joined: 17.12.2011
BlackMember

Hi,

in my opinion river is a very easy b/f. The problem is that a lot of players won't even think about valuebetting a weaker flush otr, but they are never folding it themselves. So you are loosing a lot of value by checking river. I alos agree it's highly unlikely villain has a boat here, altough his sizing looks strong.

Also bet bigger on both streets. Get some value man ;)

Regards,

Skod


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