the good aces - AA

I'd probably play it the same way. If the SB hadn't been there, then definitely so. Due to the presence of the SB, I might 3-bet on the flop.

Originally posted by YohanN7
I'd probably play it the same way. If the SB hadn't been there, then definitely so. Due to the presence of the SB, I might 3-bet on the flop.

why would you play like that and why would SB change your mind ?

Originally posted by Avataren

Originally posted by YohanN7
I'd probably play it the same way. If the SB hadn't been there, then definitely so. Due to the presence of the SB, I might 3-bet on the flop.

why would you play like that and why would SB change your mind ?

Not 3-betting is slowplaying, and slowplaying is more dangerous versus two. Versus one player, the "delay til turn" line probably has the best EV, but versus two players, I'm not sure.

Edit: I'm not really afraid of being drawn out on. But the risk that the button checks behind on the turn is pretty big 3-handed, meaning missed value.

Originally posted by YohanN7

Originally posted by Avataren

Originally posted by YohanN7
I'd probably play it the same way. If the SB hadn't been there, then definitely so. Due to the presence of the SB, I might 3-bet on the flop.

why would you play like that and why would SB change your mind ?

Not 3-betting is slowplaying, and slowplaying is more dangerous versus two. Versus one player, the "delay til turn" line probably has the best EV, but versus two players, I'm not sure.

Edit: I'm not really afraid of being drawn out on. But the risk that the button checks behind on the turn is pretty big 3-handed, meaning missed value.

I kinda have to disagree with that, because BTN looks REALLY strong. he 3bet me preflop and i capped. indicating i am strong right. But even so he proceeds to insta raise me on the flop. and due to him not being a maniac or making maniacle plays leads me to believe that theres almost no possibility that he would check turn wouldn't you think so ? and the third player i dont think played much role to him since all the guy was doing was being passive.

also i dont consider waiting till turn slowplaying. slowplaying would be waiting til river. b/c flop x/r turn is pretty standard nowadays and imo shouldn't be considered slowplay. But thats just my opinion on that line.

Since this is the micros, the raise flop for a free card on turn is not unheard of. You can also reverse your reasoning; he raises right away on the flop because he is weak and wants a cheap river. As you say, with a strong hand, waiting til turn is standard, it could be so for the button as well. Also, he might have something like AK, raising mostly to drive the small blind out - also considered standard by many.

Then I don't think we should argue about if "slowplaying" here is slowplaying or not slowplaying because it is "standard". Delaying a raise until a later betting round with a strong hand is by definition slowplaying. But slowplaying is an ugly word, so let's call it wait 'til turn

You are risking 3BB (maybe even more if BTN caps the flop with a worse hand) in the case they check behind on the turn to win just one additional BB compared to the 3bet flop, bet turn line. To risky in my opinion vs. potential raise for freecard.

and there are actually a lot of hands here that would like to raise the flop and bet the turn. any FD and straight draw i think would be well played by the BTN if he checked behind the turn.

We could discuss that later, but anyone wants to make a combo analysis to see, if we have what I said in mind, how many combos would check behind and how many (that we beat!) would valuebet the turn after a flop raise v2 players?

Originally posted by Funkmaster
You are risking 3BB (maybe even more if BTN caps the flop with a worse hand) in the case they check behind on the turn to win just one additional BB compared to the 3bet flop, bet turn line. To risky in my opinion vs. potential raise for freecard.

I didnt get that at all so what are you saying is well played or you would go with the 3bet on flop as yohan suggests ?

Originally posted by Avataren

Originally posted by Funkmaster
You are risking 3BB (maybe even more if BTN caps the flop with a worse hand) in the case they check behind on the turn to win just one additional BB compared to the 3bet flop, bet turn line. To risky in my opinion vs. potential raise for freecard.

I didnt get that at all so what are you saying is well played or you would go with the 3bet on flop as yohan suggests ?

How much additional big bets do you get from your opponents with the different lines?

3bet flop/bet turn line:
2 SB on the flop and 2 BB on the turn for a total of 3 BB.

call flop/c/r turn line:
a) If one of your opponents bets the turn: 0 SB on the flop and 4 BB on the turn for a total of 4 BB
b) If they check behind the turn: 0 SB on the flop and 0 BB on the turn for a total of 0 BB

This is somewhat simplified, expecting they would both call your bets and raises on the flop and turn. However in this case the "slowplay line" gains just one aditional big bet (4 BB - 3 BB) in the favorable scenario but loses 3 BB (0 BB - 3 BB) in the unfavorable scenario. In other words you are risking 3 BB to win 1 BB.

The call flop/checkraise turn line is therefore profitable if they bet the turn in more than 75% of the time.

But that is not all:

Sometimes - after your flop 3bet - BTN will cap a worse hand on the flop and SB will call. In this case you get a total of 4 additional big bets on the flop and turn and the cF/crT line gains nothing but risks 4 BB!

Sometimes SB would call on the flop but fold on the turn. In this case you get 2 additional big bets on flop and turn with both lines. Again gaining nothing but risking 2 BB with the cF/crT line.

Overall the risk-reward ratio is horrible and I would almost never slowplay in multiway pots.

I hope this was understandable. I am not very used to the english language

Originally posted by Funkmaster

Originally posted by Avataren

Originally posted by Funkmaster
You are risking 3BB (maybe even more if BTN caps the flop with a worse hand) in the case they check behind on the turn to win just one additional BB compared to the 3bet flop, bet turn line. To risky in my opinion vs. potential raise for freecard.

I didnt get that at all so what are you saying is well played or you would go with the 3bet on flop as yohan suggests ?

How much additional big bets do you get from your opponents with the different lines?

3bet flop/bet turn line:
2 SB on the flop and 2 BB on the turn for a total of 3 BB.

call flop/c/r turn line:
a) If one of your opponents bets the turn: 0 SB on the flop and 4 BB on the turn for a total of 4 BB
b) If they check behind the turn: 0 SB on the flop and 0 BB on the turn for a total of 0 BB

This is somewhat simplified, expecting they would both call your bets and raises on the flop and turn. However in this case the "slowplay line" gains just one aditional big bet (4 BB - 3 BB) in the favorable scenario but loses 3 BB (0 BB - 3 BB) in the unfavorable scenario. In other words you are risking 3 BB to win 1 BB.

The call flop/checkraise turn line is therefore profitable if they bet the turn in more than 75% of the time.

But that is not all:

Sometimes - after your flop 3bet - BTN will cap a worse hand on the flop and SB will call. In this case you get a total of 4 additional big bets on the flop and turn and the cF/crT line gains nothing but risks 4 BB!

Sometimes SB would call on the flop but fold on the turn. In this case you get 2 additional big bets on flop and turn with both lines. Again gaining nothing but risking 2 BB with the cF/crT line.

Overall the risk-reward ratio is horrible and I would almost never slowplay in multiway pots.

I hope this was understandable. I am not very used to the english language

Its a very very good explanation i totally got it and your english is just fine dude ♦