Originally posted by unshpe
Sorry to interfere, but where would a fish start learning GTO from scratch ?
Fish should not learn GTO yet. I would start by studying more basic stuff. ♦
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Originally posted by mesisification
Originally posted by unshpe
Sorry to interfere, but where would a fish start learning GTO from scratch ?Fish should not learn GTO yet. I would start by studying more basic stuff. ♦
Wrong
Originally posted by YohanN7
Originally posted by mesisification
Originally posted by unshpe
Sorry to interfere, but where would a fish start learning GTO from scratch ?Fish should not learn GTO yet. I would start by studying more basic stuff. ♦
Wrong
How come?
Fish should not learn GTO yet. I would start by studying more basic stuff. grin
I tend to agree. Unless you are a mathematically inclined person, GTO will both bore you and prove almost useless when you are just starting poker. You can learn the basics in this thread. 
Yes, this is how poker works.Every GTO bluffcatch call is a +EV call, otherwise it would not be a call. The Caller calls often enough, to not allow too many profitable bluffs, but all those calls are +EV. Every bluff is also a +EV bluff, and those +EV bluffs are exactly the right bluffing frequency, to not allow the caller less or more profitably than optimal.If you think about how all hands block all ranges, you will see that you never have to "call 30% of your range" at random, but you only have to call the best blocking 30% of hands, which are +EV calls, and fold the worst blocking 70% hands, which are -EV calls. All while all opponents good blocking bluffs are +EV bluffs, and his bad blocking bluffs are -EV bluffs.(+EV means "highest EV of all options", -EV means "not highest EV of all options".)(Hands can be exactly indifferent between to options as well, so that two plays are +EV. That doesn't happen as often in GTO as the lay person may believe, there is almost always exactly one correct play.)
Very illuminating post, Paul. So in theory the blocker effects would cancel each other out and we are back to a situation where neither the bettor or the caller can increase the Ev of their strategy i.e. the GTO equilibrium.
A GTO bluffcatch has plus, minus, or zero EV depending on who you are up against. It is the complete range (call for value + call as bluff catch) that has zero or positive EV.
Bluffcatching can very well have negative EV, this should be obvious if you are up against a player that never bluffs. What happens is that your value hands pay off more. Against such players, you could deviate from GTO and exploit them. But they can do nothing to exploit you.
Originally posted by YohanN7
A GTO bluffcatch has plus, minus, or zero EV depending on who you are up against. It is the complete range (call for value + call as bluff catch) that has zero or positive EV.
Any bluffcatch, any play for that matter, whether GTO or not, has plus/minus/zero EV, depending what villain does ♦.
The complete GTO river strategy can also be plus/minus/zero EV, depending what villain does, so no, your part is wrong.
Only the complete GTO strategy over all streets is guaranteeing a minimum EV against any all street response. You may be making terrible river calls, because villain only gets to the river with the nuts, but that will be compensated by picking up a lot of pots on the earlier streets.
Originally posted by lnternet
Originally posted by YohanN7
A GTO bluffcatch has plus, minus, or zero EV depending on who you are up against. It is the complete range (call for value + call as bluff catch) that has zero or positive EV....
The complete GTO river strategy can also be plus/minus/zero EV, depending what villain does, so no, your part is wrong.
...
You are correct. It is the GTO over all streets that matters. But, why am I wrong? I think that this is an interesting question that we could beef out on. It illustrates the difficulty with multi-street poker.
couple more questions for the GTO gurus:
1) Are all ranges assumed to be known when we are designing GTO strategies? Can we talk about GTO strategies without any knowledge of the opponents range?
2) Say on the turn our opponent barrels the turn with overpairs,TPTK,sets and flush draws. The river completes the flush and he bets pot. Assume we only have bluff catchers. Is it GTO to call 50% of our range on the river? Or is the GTO play to fold our full range, since regardless of his strategy, he cannot bluff on this runout.
TY
Originally posted by Itsnevereasy
couple more questions for the GTO gurus:1) Are all ranges assumed to be known when we are designing GTO strategies? Can we talk about GTO strategies without any knowledge of the opponents range?
2) Say on the turn our opponent barrels the turn with overpairs,TPTK,sets and flush draws. The river completes the flush and he bets pot. Assume we only have bluff catchers. Is it GTO to call 50% of our range on the river? Or is the GTO play to fold our full range, since regardless of his strategy, he cannot bluff on this runout.
TY
1) Yes, GTO works against all ranges - so you don't really care about the opponents range. But this isn't as good as it sounds because (perfect) exploitative play is always better than GTO.
2.) It is GTO to call 50% (perhaps not exactly, this probably needs the "bluff-catcher only" assumption). Folding 100% is obviously better versus this guy, but not GTO because it would render you exploitable. Your opponent is exploitable, but you still win (playing GTO) without exploitation.
Folding 100% is obviously better versus this guy, but not GTO because it would render you exploitable.
How, he has no bluffs in his range on the river...???
Originally posted by Itsnevereasy
Folding 100% is obviously better versus this guy, but not GTO because it would render you exploitable.
How, he has no bluffs in his range on the river...???
He could exploit you by bluffing 100% when he misses. GTO has as its only goal to make you unexploitable, not maximizing profits. In fact, if you play GTO, then there is always a more profitable strategy, except against an opponent playing GTO himself.
Originally posted by YohanN7
Originally posted by Itsnevereasy
2) Say on the turn our opponent barrels the turn with overpairs,TPTK,sets and flush draws. The river completes the flush and he bets pot. Assume we only have bluff catchers. Is it GTO to call 50% of our range on the river? Or is the GTO play to fold our full range, since regardless of his strategy, he cannot bluff on this runout.2.) It is GTO to call 50%
No.
I actually have a recent video on exactly this 
http://www.pokerstrategy.com/video/32388/
Under the assumption that no raises are allowed (last bet) and that our range is bluff-catchers the GTO answer is provably 50% (or fairly close to it considering blocker effects).
I can't watch the whole video (too low status), but I could see 5 minutes. Being 4-bet preflop is a very different situation from what we discuss here due to future bets and positional disadvantage.
Some boards favour one player over the other. Do we still have to call at the same GTO frequencies, or should we play differently because 'its a bad flop/board for us'
Example:
BTN vs BB 3bet pot.
Board: 225JK (bad situation for BTN's range imo)
GTO is unexploitable over all streets and betting rounds taken together, not separately.
Solving for GTO over several betting rounds is insanely difficult. As an example, for Fixed Limit Hold'em Heads-up play, the people behind the best GTO-robots have (fairly recently) estimated that using the computing power of Google, they could do it - only that it would take 2000 years.
By the time the sun has long ago exploded, 3-player FL Holde'm would be solved. No Limit - just forget it.
Yes, the board affects what GTO looks like. Read the posts in this thread, or more general Game Theory articles, like this: Nash Equilibrium
To understand the GTO concept, it's useful to realize a fact that I've iterated ITT. GTO isn't formulated in terms of ranges. It produces a range, your range, and you never ever care about the opponents range. There is one exception, you may estimate his range to be the precise range you would have if you and the opponents swapped seats (if you are curious about what he might hold), but this does not, by definition, affect your play in any way.
Even if GTO is important as a concept (to understand what exploitative play really is), I think it has been taken too seriously in actual poker. This is why I feel that a fish should learn about the principles of GTO for him to see his tremendous leaks (the reasons why everybody can exploit him). You don't need to go as far as full GTO, but the final bet-bluff-catch situation ITT is important for every player to know.
In other words, don't try to play GTO, but be aware of when you are deviating from it too much. There are many hand-evaluation threads where people have been making totally ridiculous hero-folds versus opponents they have like 50k hands against. What is there to say that the particular opponent don't have stats on you too, and consider you as an exploitable fish?