JTs fd river paired

Hey GingerKid

Preflop call is fine.

Flop lead is fine imo, sizing is fine.

Not the greatest turn card to barrel here. Having said that we do want some kind of bluff range - we're exploitative if we only barrel value here etc. We should also keep in mind that BTN is likely stronger than average since he called a lead in a 4-way pot potentially meaning we have less fold-equity on the turn.

I think hand is ok but on the thin side. Potentially better just to check turn and take it from there.

Originally posted by w34z3l
Hey GingerKid

Preflop call is fine.

Flop lead is fine imo, sizing is fine.

Not the greatest turn card to barrel here. Having said that we do want some kind of bluff range - we're exploitative if we only barrel value here etc. We should also keep in mind that BTN is likely stronger than average since he called a lead in a 4-way pot potentially meaning we have less fold-equity on the turn.

I think hand is ok but on the thin side. Potentially better just to check turn and take it from there.

Hi,

I supose If we take the passive turn line we are c/f every turn then?

Thank you.

Originally posted by eSKavuS

I supose If we take the passive turn line we are c/f every turn then?

Thank you.

It's just going to be a tough spot, i.e opponent may bet hands that we have significant equity against eg. 88/99.

So I would decide based on opponents bet-sizing, potentially check/fold but not always. If flop wasn't 4-way I would be much more inclined to just 2barrel.

Originally posted by w34z3l

Originally posted by eSKavuS

I supose If we take the passive turn line we are c/f every turn then?

Thank you.

It's just going to be a tough spot, i.e opponent may bet hands that we have significant equity against eg. 88/99.

So I would decide based on opponents bet-sizing, potentially check/fold but not always. If flop wasn't 4-way I would be much more inclined to just 2barrel.

Thinking about c/c turn but not betting yourself, sounds unlogical. If i would check i would fold.

I actually think that 4way pot is even greater for us to bluff turn and river (exploitable) compared to 3way or HU, because people will be more honest and will raise almost all or all nuts on flop to protect.
Many players would call flop and maybe turn with weak PP, Ax, fd, and will fold river very often, because they are so capt. I usually in this kind of capt spots barrel wider, would do it with most stronger Ax.

With this hand i was feeling very good until i hit flush, so imo it is better for me on blanks (not knowing his hand).

I think alternative here is c/r turn and give up river because i expect him to bluff fd and fold vs raise on paired board, or also fold pairs. If it would be check check turn, i would overbet river and see what he does with his busted draws and weak pairs. If he would show me fh, well done, i am sure he will have it super rare unless he is passive fish (still passive fish has so small % of range fh)

- What Ginger said makes sense too. w34z3l is c/r line turn here +EV in your opinion?

- I was not very clear about your plan to c/c either, on the river do you expect villain to ever bet worse hands on our outs?

Btw just to clarify the x/c turn was mainly if villain gives us an insane price, like way smaller than we'd bet ourselves or make a play where we have an obvious read/tell.

But yeah if we check it should be mainly to check fold.

There are two ways to view what gingerkid says and it really depends on what level opponent is on. We could say it's a great spot to barrel because we rep a ton of strength after 4-way flop, or we could say it's a bad spot because villain calls flop despite us repping a lot of strength.

I do think two barreling is ok, it's just ironic that we can never be that excited about hitting a club. It might be worth it for the fold equity but not sure it's worth it for the river reverse-implieds. In other words I feel like betting turn is profitable so long as we check fold river when we make our flush. It's a weird spot imo.

Exactly, I think we have to c/f river when we hit

But, it all depends what we think his range is. We repp a lot of strenght with turn barrel, so it makes sense that mayority of people fold their overpairs, imo also TT, JJ,
and only hands that are able to call are either FH or fd. Since we assume he raises big portion of strong hands on flop if not all, he is left only with fd imo, so we are mostly beaten on river.

On river we beat 7c8c, 8c9c, maybe 7c9c.
I think most people will sqeeze AK, AQ, might sqeeze KQ or fold. He could have Ac2c+ though. so i think river is c/f

Yeah ok, I avoided this conclusion instinctively because it feels counter-intuitive.

I think it's actually the best solution here though. It doesn't mean we always lose, opponent should check back most worse hands in his range if he still has any.

w34z3l It sounds much more clear now after you explain the whole "rep strenght" paradigm in the villains eyes. Depending on the stakes I would probably just avoid the turn barrel as you 1st mentioned.

Thank you.

.

Final question: is it reasonable to 3 barrel here due to villain's range be extremely capped by river? Maybe even bet smaller turn to get more calls from 44-JJ and draws and bomb the river with 3/4 bet or something? Can't image J high be any good here, maybe vs 98 and 76 but thats it.

i think betting smaller then bombing on busted draw looks actually as the hand you have (busted draw).

if you want to be balanced JTs should be buttom of range on river so it is bet, but imo balancing shouldnt be a reason to bet here, because we dont need to be balanced vs unknown guy 4way.
The reason to bet on blank is to fold almost his whole range, so it should be very profitable, and thats why I would bomb turn and river, would exploitatevely c/c river with TT+, and would be bluff heavy when bet.

Originally posted by GingerKid
i think betting smaller then bombing on busted draw looks actually as the hand you have (busted draw).

I see a point here, we probably fold out 88-99 by betting 2/3 agaisn't some regs turn so thats the reason why we shouldn't go crazy river vs a stronger capped range?

I am not sure if he folds 88, 99 on blank turn, but I am pretty sure most of people will fold river vs shove. Its all about the fact that he is capt (weak) and we are not, our barrels look ultra strong.
I do it all the time in zoom, vs tight people maniac style works great, and most of regs are tight in zoom, dont bluff catch too much mutliway.

Originally posted by GingerKid
I am not sure if he folds 88, 99 on blank turn, but I am pretty sure most of people will fold river vs shove. Its all about the fact that he is capt (weak) and we are not, our barrels look ultra strong.
I do it all the time in zoom, vs tight people maniac style works great, and most of regs are tight in zoom, dont bluff catch too much mutliway.

Sounds good. Thanks for sharing your thoughts here.

Hey guys,

Yeah I think 3barrel on a blank river should to ok here with J-high. Presumably it helps if we don't block the busted clubs though.

Also I'm not sure it's an issue if we bet small on turn seeing as we can potentially have some boats in our range that are not super vulnerable on turn or anything. So not sure if we would purely rep draws with this line necessarily.

epic thread.
So, if we bet river only worse calls and if we check river only better bets. Waddya think about chk/shoving the river then as a bluff. We can still have boats+ given flop and turn lines. Would be a great line if we really had boated up. Depends on whether villain will fold a flush on a paired board I guess. Obv. we would only pull this on a good hand reader who knows where the fold button is