NL10 Calling river with A high

I guess we could expect some random overcards to stab turn and river since you checked, and given the price we're getting to call we need to be right like 24% to b/e.

That being said, we often muck our cards w/ villain showing some 55-77, A2-A5 etc..
I'd probably calling turn and folding river.

Not sure this is the right play though :>

hey sneaky, thx for feedback
calling turn and folding river is a line I prefer to avoid as much as possible

also posted this one on my dutch blog and in closed forum, this is feedback i got there:

Flop - 3 way on a dry flop we should cb and try to take it down. And we have good drawing equity too.

On the dry run out bluff catching is reasonable, since our hand is at the top of our range and he is representing a very narrow range,

I kinda agree with the HJ on this one, although I don't really like the cbet, just don't see that many turncards we could continue on firing. Also I'm trying to get my high cbet% down, this looked to me like a spot where I could do without cbet Although it is indd a dry board, it just doesn't look like one I'd like to cbet on
(with villains floating more dry flops, no many good turncards, me not repping all that much...)

any thoughts on the cbet?

I'd c-bet this board all day long, it's just such an easy board to c-bet on, even though you're not repping all that much. I would imagine that you c-bet all your overpairs (99-AA) and sets (88, 22, 44) pretty much 100 percent of the time, so why not stab at this pot with the top of your missed range (AK, maybe AQ from time to time). I don't always c-bet with AK/AQ on this board, but I think you have to c-bet some percentage of the time with these hands as well.

From a mathematical point of view, it means that you have 36 combinations of overpairs and 9 combinations of sets. I just don't see that many draws so let's just stick with this. It means you have 45 combo's for pure value. Having 16 combinations of the top of your missed range is in my opinion just mandatory. It's just too easy to play against you if you always check this on the flop. Villain just has to double barrel on safe turns(/rivers) and he takes the pot away from you. Yes, it's true that you might have the best hand on the flop so checking the flop is not all that bad, but it makes it very hard to play on the turn and river once they know you check these flops with this range. Bet turn and bet river and you can do the guessing game. I would value bet even with 2nd pair here since I can expect to get calls by A high (like you did). Definitely c-bet the flop, even though there are 2 other people in the pot (and not heads up).

PS - I just spotted that this hand is played on a FR table. I am used to play short handed tables, but I do think that this is definitely a c-bet even in FR....

you certainly make a very good point sir, thank you for the input
however, It is not correct that villain will take pot away from me with double barrel bluff, since on this runout I decided to blufcatch

I agree with you that we should not only cbet when we hit, however I'm not totally agreeing on what range we should put in our "bluf"-part of the cbet
Aq has more eq than let's say a 56 of hearts against a random hand
however the playablility of 56s is much greater here, since we can continue barreling on way more turns. Chances of actually seeing a showdown with the aq if we cbet are rather small. I also expect to get floated a lot on this board
However, I'm not saying we should never cbet our Aq here, it is indd something I wil do from time to time ( really depends on board texture, try to look more into detail then oh a dry board and overcards)

part of play was based on "population read", namely that people stab the pot too much against a missed cbet. imo cbetting would just let them fold their trash and continue with better hands. by checking I gave villain opportunity to make a mistake ( bluffing me way too much after missed cbet) and I thought there was more value in it. At the time, I knew I was stepping out of line a bit, that's why I posted this for review

ps: I play Fr zoom, it's a bit hard for villains to know what hands I'm checking on this flop. On this occasion of course one of them saw showdown, the rest of table has pbb folded a few hands on their next tables by then. I agree that on normal tables villains would pick up on this much sooner

Originally posted by vandeuren
you certainly make a very good point sir, thank you for the input
however, It is not correct that villain will take pot away from me with double barrel bluff, since on this runout I decided to blufcatch

Thank you. You did in this case, but as I mentioned, not everybody will pick up on this, but I will certainly do ♦. ALl of a sudden you're leveling yourself against me by calling down with ace high ♦. But I guess you'll call down based on the villain as well.

I agree with you that we should not only cbet when we hit, however I'm not totally agreeing on what range we should put in our "bluf"-part of the cbet

This could definitely be a value/protection c-bet in a lot of spots. It's not a blfuf if you only have A high.

However, I'm not saying we should never cbet our Aq here, it is indd something I wil do from time to time ( really depends on board texture, try to look more into detail then oh a dry board and overcards)

It's one of the best boards you can get...

part of play was based on "population read", namely that people stab the pot too much against a missed cbet. imo cbetting would just let them fold their trash and continue with better hands.

Bit contradictory to what you mentioned somewhere else in your post: "I also expect to get floated a lot on this board." If you expect this, betting becomes for value and protection against their shitty JTs on this board. But I don't think people do in FR. SH is another story. I've seen ridiculous floats already.

Aq has more eq than let's say a 56 of hearts against a random hand
however the playablility of 56s is much greater here, since we can continue barreling on way more turns.

I agree for sure, but please stick to this spot. Are you opening 56s from UTG+1 ? I am opening 56s from time to time UTG in SH games, but are you ? Don't forget that there is someone left to act after you check the flop. In a HU spot, I definitely see the advantage of bluff catching based on your population read. In a three-way pot, it's a bit more awkward to play this spot, but still not bad at all. All I meant is that it's just so easy for you to c-bet this flop since you're opening from UTG and your range looks so strong. Even if called, you can catch an A or Q and continue barreling, and some of the time you just don't need one like in this spot, which means that it's for pure value as well.

All in all, it might be a bit confusing, but AQ/AK c-betting here is not as a pure bluff. You have the best hand from time to time. It's never a complete bluff imo. But you're right as well, a bluffing range looks differently than AK/AQ in this spot.

lolz ok I was indd contradicting myself there about the floating and cbetting, still early for me

just starting on NL25 zoom, so i don't have hud sample yet, however I will of course call down according to villain if I got a sample and relevant stats

-Think I can agree on the Aq being not a pure bluff here, but also being partly value. Thank you for this new insight

-Am just starting to gather population reads, so I could indd be way off
that people are starting to float a lot of dry boards is something I picked up from a vid, that was indd probably 6-max.

-another factor that influenced my decision is trying to get my cbet% down from like 80% on NL10 where people were folding to much on cbets, to more like the 60% it is now ( on NL25 people people will float way more)
However, after your clear explanation, I will include this hand more in my c-betting range here
On occasion, versus the right kind of villain, I think it is nice to know that I could also take another line here, like the one I did

Thank you once again for your time, and helping me get my thoughts clear

ps:56s was just example, maybe one day on a really fishy table I will open this hand, if I do I'll let you know