Coach telling some one what to do in a live game

Shane, i agree both are unethical, but ghosting and using coach for it, is way worse in my eyes.

Badger, at first i thought the same as sacking is too extreme, but than i started to wonder why he really haven't posted any of his screen names in his thread, he is well known in our community so for that reason we have a lot of info in the way he is coaching, so it would be understandable, but than again giving his experience as a coach/poker player and that his FIRST coaching option is offering ghosting and he did admit that it is popular "coaching" method and no screen names makes me wonder about his intentions about offering private coaching on ps forum...

I will give benefit of a doubt about this, maybe i am just seeing things that aren't there.

given that this issue is potentially serious i think it's only fair that we leave it now until the coach and ps have a chance to respond.

I agree. I'll close this temporarily.

I specifically asked P*s customer service regarding this.

Here is their reply, edited only to remove my real name.

Hello Vorpal,

Thank you for your email. Your email was escalated to me as a member of the PokerStars Game Integrity Team.

PokerStars requires that each account is played by only one player, and each player may only play on one account. That being said, PokerStars does allow ad-hoc, unplanned, occasional advice from other players, most commonly in the form of hand discussion between friends or similar. Prohibiting such behaviour would simply be unrealistic to enforce.

On the other hand, running a paid service to provide real-time advice to others, such as final table coaching, is not allowed. This type of planned, repeated action is a violation of PokerStars' rules.

Paid non-real-time advice, such as coaching services offering advice based upon hands and tournaments that have already taken place are substantially different and akin to reading a book or strategy article, and thus, are permitted.

If you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to ask.

Regards,

Brett
Game Integrity Team

It is clear from this that giving advice to a player is not permitted.

Best regards.
--VS

Hey guys,
As it has been pointed out, there is a year-old announcement in the section:

Originally posted by SvenBe
Dear PokerStrategy.com Members,

We would like to remind you that it is against the policies of some Poker rooms (e.g. PokerStars) to give real time advice during a live private coaching. This is true for every game type. We support this rule and actively ask our coaches to adhere to it and to not offer real time coaching services on PokerStars in our forums.

For a better learning experience we anyways recommend you to discuss your play of pre-recorded session or do database reviews / theory discussions. This allows you to focus more on any specific spots or leaks.

Your Poker School Team

Our standpoint remains the same - you should not be breaching any poker room's Terms and Conditions.

Whether or not something is unethical, unfair or impolite in the particular cases where it's permitted by the poker room is a question of opinion, much like the usage of tracking software in that regard.

Our recommendation is, in order to have a good long term effect and benefit the most from any coaching, to prepare specific questions and discuss general ideas rather than focusing on individual decisions or sessions. This can be done with hand / database reviews and theory Q&A's.

Hey guys,

We have decided to re-open this thread as it seems to be a very popular discussion point.

However, please refrain from making unsubstantiated allegations.

Regards

Laz

Highly illegal and unethical.

Big ongoing discussion at 2p2

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/61/mtt-community/boo-theres-ghost-my-ft-1377487/

Originally posted by darkonebg

Whether or not something is unethical, unfair or impolite in the particular cases where it's permitted by the poker room is a question of opinion, much like the usage of tracking software in that regard.

I'm sorry to be this harsh m8 - but you're way out of line dude! comparing ghosting to the usage of tracking software shows that you have no clue.

Ghosting is without any doubt unethical unfair AND impolite and i would really Pokerstrategy to make a stand here! (shocked that mods dont see ghosting as a big deal)

/AlcopopDK

Originally posted by AlcopopDK
Ghosting is without any doubt unethical unfair AND impolite and i would really Pokerstrategy to make a stand here! (shocked that mods dont see ghosting as a big deal)

I'd like to point out that, as far as I'm aware, I'm the only one on the team who believes that this kind of coaching offer is not that problematic. Everyone else I've talked to seems to share your opinion.

My own opinion was based on how I would feel if I knew that someone else was doing that on my table, and I decided that it probably wouldn't bother me too much. I never really thought about it before.

I can see your points, though.

Originally posted by AlcopopDK
Ghosting is without any doubt unethical unfair AND impolite and i would really Pokerstrategy to make a stand here! (shocked that mods dont see ghosting as a big deal)

/AlcopopDK

100% agree

i dont want crucifixions. i just want all forms of ghosting officially declared against site rules from now on.

please step up and be an example to the industry ps.

In the "coaches" op advertising his coaching offer, he provides no details of screen names or sharkscope results, he just says "my answers on pokerstrategy show I am competent"

Some body else on this thread made a good point about what his motives are.

At first I thought it could be a case of naivety on the part of the coach, the whole point in raising this thread was hopefully to get some discussion going and hopefully that the first part of his coaching offering removed, ie the part where he tell's some one what to do at a FT.

After reading a response by a poster on here it made me wonder if it is deliberate he has no usernames/ graphs on the site?

Quite simply, if he was going to do this on stars - despite the fact he has said he would not - there would be no evidence attaching him if a complaint was ever made, as no one knows what his user name on Stars is.

And let's be honest stars in the biggest sight out there with big prizes on offer through their FT's.

The more I have thought about this, there is just something that does not add up about this coach in question.

This is a copy and paste of the coach in question on his MTT Coaching thread in response to the whole issue of the immoriality/ unethical nature of his coaching:

"If you don't want a coaching you don't have to take one. I won't ever deliver any results of one of my accounts. That is a personal decision that quite a few coaches share. Everyone can watch my videos, have a look at the coaching I designed, or revisit my postings in the strategy and hand evaluation forums. If that is not sufficient or not to your liking you shouldn't book a coaching with me.

Regards,
Asaban "

A full copy of the chat can be found here

Private Coaching with Asaban (MTT/MTSNG)

Originally posted by larsonk7

Keep your ethics if they keep you happy. I am fine with that! But don't force them on others.

]

WOW - this is basicly whats wrong in the poker community! people think they cant afford to have ethics because others dont.

why do people think thats something shady is all of sudden OK just because alot of guys do it?

/AlcopopDK

Asaban's response is pretty lol

It's quite alarming he doesn't seem concerned with ethics/ morality in the slightest.

It's also disappointing that poker strategy have allowed this section of his offer to remain on the site.

Also, the guy has clearly shown a lack on interest in ethics, what has poker strategy done to vet this guy to ensure there is nothing dodgy?

It's highly suspicious he has not posted any user id, stats of performance etc

Originally posted by larsonk7

It's highly suspicious he has not posted any user id, stats of performance etc

In regards to this, I do agree. Any coach or player that wishes to pass teaching onto the Poker community and charge for it should have no problems sharing results to authorize their eligibility. Otherwise you end up paying up front for a person who potentially knows less about the game than you. Anyone can search for answers to any questions posed by prospective clients, especially on a forum base such as this where quick thinking isn't needed. Basic knowledge of the game, some ICM software, equity calculator, tracking software,some pretty lies and Google... Anyone can be convincing as a coach... Lets face it there's not many scenarios that come up at the table you couldn't find a maths based solution or hand evaluation that hasn't been visited at some point within 10 minutes using the tools I've just outlined.

Anyway, back on topic... The ethics are obviously breached here, if you were at a live tournament and someone came and sat next to you, looked at your cards every hand and then relayed actions to you and you followed them... What do you think the repercussions would be?

However, I also share the view of Harrier88, and understand his point exactly... I also wouldn't care if it happened to me, but I see where you all stand and I highly respect your position, in favour of the "coaches" that offer this service.

Ghosting is cheating pure and simple. It is also highly unethical at best.
Let me reiterate.
Final table of the Sunday Storm with $30k up top.
Instead of playing against 8 other players who have made it through you are suddenly playing against a pro who has taken over for another player for "COACHING" purposes.
Ghosting is just a politically correct term for someone else taking over your account
As far as I know every sites terms of service precludes another player from playing on any account that is not theirs and no matter how you attempt to dress it, that is exactly what is happening.
I said it in an earlier post and I will say it again, if this action is condoned by pokerstrategy by letting the coach advertise this then the ethics displayed by this site are not in the players best interest.