Nutrition and poker.

Hey guys,

let's keep this thread focused on nutrition that allows you to play poker better, shall we :)?

As mentioned above, this isn't a thread about what's "healthy" or not (because each person has a different definition of that, and it's next to impossible to determine whether some foods will kill you or not, especially since you need tot take food combinations into the account) or about the morality of eating meat. Discussions like that can very easily derail and not bring any real value to people.

Be careful with studies as well. There're tons of them out there that are sponsored by pharmaceutical / nutrition companies (you'd be surprised how many studies are sponsored by Coca Cola and how nicely the results align with their interests...). And then, you have books like "The china study" which largely misinterpret the results from the studies and draw conclusions can be far from reality.

If you want to dig into studies, I'd strongly recommend you to read the "Spotting bad science" chapter from the book "The 4 hour body".

I personally prefer self-experimentation instead - testing different foods by yourself and seeing how your body reacts to them. Why? Because you can see the results (regarding focus and energy levels at least) much faster and you don't have to waste tons of hours reading studies that might or might not have been conducted properly.

I know that eggs make me feel amazing if I eat them with vegetables/beans, decrease my hunger throughout the day and greatly increase the sleep quality.

I have however also noticed that if I eat eggs together with bread or pasta, I will often feel like crap afterwards - so be aware that your body can react differently to different food combinations.

On the topic of veganism and vegetarianism, I know a fair amount of people who claim to have much higher energy levels since they switched to that kind of a lifestyle, so I'm sure that you can make it work as long as you do some research on your own and figure out what works for you (being vegan/vegetarian and eating tons of sugar a day probably won't make you super healthy or productive).

Originally posted by Schnitzelfisch
Hey guys,

let's keep this thread focused on nutrition that allows you to play poker better, shall we :)?

As mentioned above, this isn't a thread about what's "healthy" or not (because each person has a different definition of that, and it's next to impossible to determine whether some foods will kill you or not, especially since you need tot take food combinations into the account) or about the morality of eating meat. Discussions like that can very easily derail and not bring any real value to people.

Be careful with studies as well. There're tons of them out there that are sponsored by pharmaceutical / nutrition companies (you'd be surprised how many studies are sponsored by Coca Cola and how nicely the results align with their interests...). And then, you have books like "The china study" which largely misinterpret the results from the studies and draw conclusions can be far from reality.

If you want to dig into studies, I'd strongly recommend you to read the "Spotting bad science" chapter from the book "The 4 hour body".

I personally prefer self-experimentation instead - testing different foods by yourself and seeing how your body reacts to them. Why? Because you can see the results (regarding focus and energy levels at least) much faster and you don't have to waste tons of hours reading studies that might or might not have been conducted properly.

I know that eggs make me feel amazing if I eat them with vegetables/beans, decrease my hunger throughout the day and greatly increase the sleep quality.

I have however also noticed that if I eat eggs together with bread or pasta, I will often feel like crap afterwards - so be aware that your body can react differently to different food combinations.

On the topic of veganism and vegetarianism, I know a fair amount of people who claim to have much higher energy levels since they switched to that kind of a lifestyle, so I'm sure that you can make it work as long as you do some research on your own and figure out what works for you (being vegan/vegetarian and eating tons of sugar a day probably won't make you super healthy or productive).

Ok, sorry, will stick with topic.
Yeah we both can agree there is ton research is sponsored by lot of different interests from different industries.
Also yeah it def top mistake when going vegan/vegetarian people take too much sugar and seeds/nuts.

Can you explain this more?
"I personally prefer self-experimentation instead - testing different foods by yourself and seeing how your body reacts to them."

Isn't it short-term oriented? You take different food and body react to it positively short-term.
I mean how you make sure what is your long-term body reaction (health and overall mood) and how it effect you long-term overall also at poker table.

Yes, it certainly has it's flaws - it's short term-oriented, and you could argue that the sample size is small.

But the good thing about it is that you don't have to worry about checking 100 studies before making one small change in your nutrition (most people don't have this much time), and from my experience the overall mood benefits that are short term are often long term as well, so you can keep doing what seems to be working and keep getting the results that you want.

There are a few exceptions with things like extremely low carb diets, where after a while you start feeling like complete crap unless you restore your glycogen reserves, but in most cases what happens is pretty predictable.

For example:

-if you drink a lot of coffee, you will most likely crash within a few hours and suffer from insomnia
-if you eat chocolates and burgers all day, you will most likely feel sick, sleepy and even anxious
-if you eat a breakfast of eggs, beans and vegetables, you will most likely feel much better than if you eat 1kg of chocolate

If you wanted to really track your body's reactions, you could potentially also buy some glucose meters etc. like what diabetics use, although I doubt you'd enjoy the process all that much :).

I haven't personally seen any foods that would give you a drastically different reaction (mood-wise) in the short-term than long-term, but if you have access to some specific examples I would love to hear about them.

Are there foods that make you feel good but increase your chances of certain diseases? Probably, and fruit for example might be one of them according to some studies. Does that mean that nobody should ever eat fruit any more? Of course not.

In the end, no nutrition plan is perfect for every single person out there. You need to find one that suits your goals better, and it seems like you have already found one that suits your needs best :).

Hi guys,

I've spent a ton of time over the past ten years researching nutrition and fitness. Not as a job or in college or anything, just out of personal interest. Thought I'd give my two cents.

I (mostly) eat a diet high in fat and protein, and low in carbs (carbohydrate - sugar and starch). I "feel" that this is the best way to eat and many many people, from dieticians to personal trainers to athletes feel the same way.

A high fat and protein diet doesn't need to be unhealthy. I can already see some of you frowning or laughing at this post or thinking "what a noob", but if you are careful about food selection and diligent in preparing your food, you could end up really healthy and stay that way for a long time.

I'll just offer a few guidelines and give an example diet (the meals I ate today, actually).

Basically, if you cut out 80% of the sources of sugar and starch in your diet, you will end up cutting out almost every food that is bad for you.
This means no bread - which is practically poison to most people, pasta, potatoes, rice, pastry, pizza, sweets and deserts, breakfast cereal (dust with milk), soft drinks/sodas, fries. All that good stuff needs to go.

Heres why (in laymens terms). When we eat a carb (sugar or starch), it causes a spike in blood insulin. Even "complex" or "slow release" carbs do this. The insulin causes our body to shuttle protein to the muscles (which is good after a hard workout), and add adipose to body fat stores while PREVENTING our body from burning excess fat.

These insulin spikes inevitably cause a "downswing", leaving you tired and unfocused after an hour or so.

You will notice that those heavyset people you know tend to eat A LOT of starch, even if they never eat sugar.

There is one exception to the no carb rule, which is after a hard workout. Then I eat my only carb laden meal of the day. I don't go crazy with sweets and bagels. Instead, I have a chicken curry or beef chilli with brown rice, or fish with homemade sweet potato chips (baked, not fried). Sometimes I have pasta, though I tend to avoid wheat.

So from where do we get our energy? Quite simply, we get it from fat, and saturated fat is King. Don't worry about cholesterol dangers or heart problems. These issues are almost never caused by dietary fat when it is taken from a natural source! These natural sources are red meat like steak, mince, pork, lamb, eggs, seafood. Mcdonalds burgers or sausage and bacon do not make the cut.

Whenever you think of eating something, ask yourself this:

CAN I PICK THIS AND EAT, OR KILL THIS AND EAT IT?

Basically, is the food natural, or has it been processed beyond recognition?

Pick natural food, lots of meat and veg, no sugar or starch, lots of water (shoot for 2 liters a day, more on training days or if you live in a warm country).
Take a good multivitamin+mineral (mineral is more important for most of us) and fish oil supplement.
Protein powder is useful, but not essential.

Here is what I have eaten today:

Breakfast Smoothie (one hour before gym)
Carrot, banana, handfull berries, scoop peanut butter, scoop whey protein, some milk
Spoon fish oil and multivitamin/mineral tablet (taken seperate, not added to smootie)
Always try to add one veggie to a smoothie. I promise you wont taste it!!!

Lunch (after my weights session)
Curried mince beef (Indian shtyle) with chick peas and peppers and brown rice

Dinner
4 Scrambled eggs with a small amount of bacon (like one slice, maybe two), some peppers and onion.

Evening meal
2 pork chops, shallow fried or grilled with a side salad (lots of lettuce, olives, seeds, etc, whatever you like really) and a little dressing. Olive oil and balsamic vinegar works well here.

Before bed
Whey protein shake with milk (I use a coconut milk replacement coz dairy gives me the sh!ts), teaspoon fish oil and miltivitamin tablet.

I snack on nuts (unsalted) and fruit if I get the munchies, or I dip carrot or celery into houmous.

You can see that the diet is pretty healthy, all natural food, no processed junk. It is also simple, with each meal taking 15-20mins to prepare and only a further 5-10 mins to cook (and with meal one, the carb meal, you can prepare a few days worth in one go)

I follow a similar diet most of the time, only eating "junk" when I'm out for a meal with someone (I dont want to be "that guy"), or on a weekend away or drinking session with buddies, but these things are rare events for me now.

Please realize that other than my workout (I train 5 days a week, 30-60 mins per session), I am very inactive. People playing sports (really playing, not just kicking a ball around with friends), or working in manual labour like construction, will need more food, and may need to add more starch for convenience. Most of us, meaning 80-90%, DO NOT NEED STARCH OR SUGAR IN OUR DIETS.

If you are wondering, my blood profile (cholesterol, triglycerides etc) is perfect. My blood pressure is slightly elevated because a smoked for years and drink often (hey, Im Irish!!!!)

If anybody would like links or info on weight training, fitness training, diet help etc please let me know.

Here's an excellent video explaining the effects of sugar (fructose):

it got 4.7 million views on youtube, which for a 1h30m video on nutrition is not so bad. More importantly than how many views it got, it's very insightful.

Thanks for sharing your insights CreamyGoodness!

I personally prefer self-experimentation instead - testing different foods by yourself and seeing how your body reacts to them. Why? Because you can see the results (regarding focus and energy levels at least) much faster and you don't have to waste tons of hours reading studies that might or might not have been conducted properly.

-if you drink a lot of coffee, you will most likely crash within a few hours and suffer from insomnia
-if you eat chocolates and burgers all day, you will most likely feel sick, sleepy and even anxious
-if you eat a breakfast of eggs, beans and vegetables, you will most likely feel much better than if you eat 1kg of chocolate

besidest these extreme examples what you mentioned, I did not feel huge change when I started to cut down eating sugar. I mean when you take 1 kilo shocolate vs some healthy food, I would notice. But if I would eat normal piece of snickers or so a day, I dont feel difference from now when I dont eat it. Or if I put 1 spoon sugar to the cup of tea vs when I dont put it - I dont feel the difference in my energy levels.

This means no bread - which is practically poison to most people, pasta, potatoes, rice, pastry, pizza, sweets and deserts, breakfast cereal (dust with milk), soft drinks/sodas, fries. All that good stuff needs to go.

Pasta I have read that its very healthy. They have minerals. ALso they improve physical work, thinking, concentration. Also vitamins A and B. Also they make serotonin which causes happyness.

And also big advantage of pasta is in the mornings - before going to job, I just put on water, and go to do something else. Water quicly boils, I just put pasta, and in 5 minutes it is ready to eat. In the mornings before work food which is quick to make is very good and also I dont feel hungry so fast, as for example if I would eat sandwiches in the morning.

Originally posted by CreamyGoodness
This means no bread - which is practically poison to most people, pasta, potatoes, rice, pastry, pizza, sweets and deserts, breakfast cereal (dust with milk), soft drinks/sodas, fries. All that good stuff needs to go.

Poison??? You mean for people with Celiac Disease which is definitely not "most people". IIRC the healthiest diet (or one of the healthiest) is the Mediteranean diet and people in that region eat a lot of pasta/pizza/bread. Nothing is bad if eaten in moderation.
And everyone person is different. If something doesn't work for you, don't say it's poison!

Originally posted by Fr0z3nByt3

Originally posted by CreamyGoodness
This means no bread - which is practically poison to most people, pasta, potatoes, rice, pastry, pizza, sweets and deserts, breakfast cereal (dust with milk), soft drinks/sodas, fries. All that good stuff needs to go.

Poison??? You mean for people with Celiac Disease which is definitely not "most people". IIRC the healthiest diet (or one of the healthiest) is the Mediteranean diet and people in that region eat a lot of pasta/pizza/bread. Nothing is bad if eaten in moderation.
And everyone person is different. If something doesn't work for you, don't say it's poison!

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hyperbole

I disagree about pasta (I'm Italian ♦ )

Not all sugars are bad. You need to differentiate between the different kinds. Pasta has GLUCOSE which is the "good sugar." Not only it's good, it's also essential because it powers the ATP (sodium-potassium pump). All energy in the body is stored as glucose. That's why people who do marathons do carb-loading.

The "bad sugar" is the processed one, like high-fructose corn syrup. The body doesn't need it and it processes it the same way as alcohol. In fact the medical effects of overeating fructose and alcoholism are the same, minus the hangover.

The video I posted above explains exactly these things. It's long but it's a very good one.

Originally posted by outspan
I disagree about pasta (I'm Italian ♦ )

Not all sugars are bad. You need to differentiate between the different kinds. Pasta has GLUCOSE which is the "good sugar." Not only it's good, it's also essential because it powers the ATP (sodium-potassium pump). All energy in the body is stored as glucose. That's why people who do marathons do carb-loading.

The "bad sugar" is the processed one, like high-fructose corn syrup. The body doesn't need it and it processes it the same way as alcohol. In fact the medical effects of overeating fructose and alcoholism are the same, minus the hangover.

The video I posted above explains exactly these things. It's long but it's a very good one.

hey outspan, piacere! Amo Italia, sono stato molte volte! We seem to agree on a lot of things, and it's true, Italian food is delicious. I'll watch that video you posted tonight.

Frozen, speedfan, et al:

I'm not arguing that pasta or bread or starch or sugar is bad in general, I'm just arguing that not everybody needs it, and certainly not in the quantities we consume them. This thread is not about what is healthy and what isn't, it is about eating for optimal performance at the poker table.

What I said in my post is that very few Westerners, particularly those working sedentary jobs (office jobs etc) need starch in their diets.

Sugar and starch are pure energy. They provide our bodies with fuel and little else. Someone above vaguely mentioned that pasta contains minerals. I guarantee that pasta contains a tiny percentage of vitamins and minerals when compared to say broccoli, or wild rice, or salad leaves.

You may have heard the term "empty calories". That is exactly what sugar and starch provides. Energy and nothing else. When we eat any form of carbohydrate, it causes a spike or upswing in blood sugar/insulin. This is fine if we are about to do some hard manual labour, such as a lot of heavy lifting or a long run, but if we eat before we sit at a desk for four hours, we will feel energetic, then drowsy, and all the while the body is converting the excess starch into body fat. The size of the spike depends on how much carb we eat, and with what other foods we eat it. The spike always causes a crash or downswing, during which many people feel drowsy or irritable. Being hyperactive or drowsy at the poker table is not a formula for success, thus avoiding sugar and starch is a good idea for a poker player.

Dietary fat also provides us with energy, but the energy is harder for our bodies to use. This is a good thing, as the body spends more calories breaking down the fat, and the energy is released slowly, preventing insulin spikes and crashes which in turn prevents hyperactivity and drowsiness.

Fat is also used to create new skin cells etc. It is used as a foundation in creating hormones such as testosterone and insulin and various other things within the lymphatic system. It is all round a better source of energy for our bodies as it serves many purposes.

For example, I know some people who will have breakfast cereal/oatmeal or toast in the morning, a sandwich/roll/panini for lunch, and pasta/potato based meal in the evening. Maybe they will snack on crackers or crisps, and drink lucozade/gatorade or other energy drinks under the illusion that these things are healthy (lucozade/gatorade hydrates faster than water is not quite a myth, but it is seriously misrepresented).

These people then wonder why they are fat, or unhealthy, or lethargic. It is sugar, plain and simple. And yes, some doctors in the US and UK are lobbying to have refined sugar reclassified as a poison. I can find links if you really need them, but a quick google search should suffice. I can also guarantee that other refined sources of starch such as wheat products (read: bread), will also be criticized as unhealthy over the next few years.

If you don't believe me, google search glycemic index (GI) list. You will find a list of foods which have the greatest and lowest effect on blood sugar levels. You may be surprised to learn that most breakfast cereals, breads and pasta have a similar effect on our bodies as plain table sugar.

The argument that marathon runners "carb load" is all fine until I ask you how many poker players regularly run marathons, or do any consistent endurance training at all. I don't need to take a survey to guess that the answer is: very few. If all we do is an hour a day in the gym, four or five days a week, then we really don't need much sugar or starch. A high protein, moderate fat and minimal carbohydrate diet is optimal.

The body does not store carbohydrate as glucose, it stores it as "glycogen", which the body reconverts to glucose when needed. If you have significant fat stores already, your body fat will not be easily reduced if you have high glycogen stores. besides, fat can also be stored as glycogen, but at a lower rate, as the fat is useful to so many other areas of the body.

I've just read the topic an two things are bothering me.

1) bananas - must say that i've rediscovered it few months ago when i started to working out. No I feel it's one of a best fruits (as well as apples). I eat abou 3-4 a day (usualy mixed with whey powder). You said to don't go crazy with them. What do you mean? It's because of fructose? 3-4 it's too much in your opinion?

2) dairy. what;s wrong about it? I drink milk (about glass a day) and eat a lot of cottage cheese (at least 200g/day) and i just can't think about anything else i can replace it! It's great source of protein if i do not want to eat meat all the time. So i'd be gratfull if you could write smth about it.

I'd like to gain some weight but I've stoped on 83 kg. It was my usual weight till year ago when i get down to about 75 on a diet (don't know why i did it - just to try if i can get a six pack i guess). Now i'd like to reach about 90 and get some more muscels. I'm working out 6-7 days a week. 3 days of weightlifting, 2 swimming, 1 running. Also i'm tryin why,carbo powder and creatine monohydrate but as i said before i stopped on abot 83 and don't know what to do now. Usually I eat smth like:
wake up 7.20
1)8.15 cottage cheese nad half bowl of milk with some oatmeal and bunch of rasins and nuts
2) 11.30 yogurt with grains and an apple
3)13.00 shake - 700 ml - 50g whey, 2 bananas, 50 g carbo, water , milk
4) 14.30 - chicken curry with rice, corn, peas, paper, tomatoes - about 0,5 kg
5) 17.30 - some fruit - usualy orange and kiwi or peach
than 1-2 h workout
6) 20.00 shake - 700 ml - 50g whey, 1 banana, 50 g carbo, 5 g creatine,water , milk
7) 21.30 rice/pasta chicken (about 300g) some veggies
sleep time about 0.30

I'm pretty sure that smth's not right here but i have to say that i feel really amazing compered to my previous lifestyle (no workout, junk food etc)
Do you have some advice?

Very good and interesting thread. Personally, I follow a vegetarian diet but it needs to improve since long poker sessions sometimes don't help me make the best food choices. I find that since playing poker means sitting all the time it makes me even less active. I guess it's all about discipline. Perhaps preparing the meals before playing is good option.

On the other hand, just to point out that apart from all the protein sources from animal products you can also get it from many plant foods. Legumes, nuts and seeds are some examples (contains all the amino-acids our body needs). I guess Daniel Negreanu could tell us about it, he's a long-term vegan.