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AK vs shove, CO vs BTN

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Should I have folded to the shove or possibly called the 3bet and looked to see how the flop developed?

Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $16.70 (167 bb)
BB: $10.58 (105.8 bb)
UTG: $45.33 (453.3 bb)
MP: $12.55 (125.5 bb)
Hero (CO): $13.02 (130.2 bb)
BTN: $10.33 (103.3 bb)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K A
2 folds, Hero raises to $0.25, BTN raises to $0.90, 2 folds, Hero raises to $2.50, BTN raises to $10.33 and is all-in, Hero calls $7.83

Flop: ($20.81) 4 T 6 (2 players, 1 is all-in)
Turn: ($20.81) A (2 players, 1 is all-in)
River: ($20.81) 8 (2 players, 1 is all-in)

Results:

Spoiler

$20.81 pot ($0.94 rake)
Final Board: 4 T 6 A 8
Hero showed K A and lost (-$10.33 net)
BTN showed A A and won $19.87 ($9.54 net)


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20 replies
imfar
Joined: 20.07.2009

Try to leave some info about villain. If it's unknown than write that he is inknown. With given positions as a standar I play for stacks vs unk. Calling 3Bet pre-flop Just to hit A or K is burning money.


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excitedpoker
Joined: 12.08.2010

vs unknown i would 4bet to 2.25 and fold to the shove


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AmorPL
Joined: 31.08.2011

What's the point in 4bet/folding AK pre? It's like turning our hand into a bluff? Isn't better just calling to his 3bet, and keeping his range wide?


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metza
Joined: 28.01.2012

4bet and call it off, easy. Need 37% vs his range to call the 5bet.


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excitedpoker
Joined: 12.08.2010

Originally posted by AmorPL
What's the point in 4bet/folding AK pre? It's like turning our hand into a bluff? Isn't better just calling to his 3bet, and keeping his range wide?

Your line is pretty valid also but playing AK out of position in a 3bet flop is something i don`t like at all because we are basically fit or fold and even when we hit sometimes(only 33%) we are crushed so using our blockers to 4bet looks fine for me.


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imfar
Joined: 20.07.2009

@excitedpoker 4bet/fold is hardly ever a good idea. If you have a tendency to play this line with AK than this is most probably a leak.


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KingKas
Joined: 30.06.2012

As said, it's a 4bet/call situation, as long as you can't give us any other information about villain. Versus unknown, you 4bet and make a ton of money by them folding, if they jam however you call off, because there's a lot of dead money in the pot and you block 50% of AA,KK combos.

You need ~ 37% equity, and you have 38,8% equity with AKo vs {QQ+, AKo}.


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MGELO
Joined: 31.07.2013

Try to leave some info about villain. If it's unknown than write that he is inknown. With given positions as a standar I play for stacks vs unk. Calling 3Bet pre-flop Just to hit A or K is burning money.

i egree


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uglyboy88
Joined: 19.03.2009

Originally posted by flopraiser
Should I have folded to the shove or possibly called the 3bet and looked to see how the flop developed?

Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $16.70 (167 bb)
BB: $10.58 (105.8 bb)
UTG: $45.33 (453.3 bb)
MP: $12.55 (125.5 bb)
Hero (CO): $13.02 (130.2 bb)
BTN: $10.33 (103.3 bb)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K A
2 folds, Hero raises to $0.25, BTN raises to $0.90, 2 folds, Hero raises to $2.50, BTN raises to $10.33 and is all-in, Hero calls $7.83

Flop: ($20.81) 4 T 6 (2 players, 1 is all-in)
Turn: ($20.81) A (2 players, 1 is all-in)
River: ($20.81) 8 (2 players, 1 is all-in)

Results:

Spoiler

$20.81 pot ($0.94 rake)
Final Board: 4 T 6 A 8
Hero showed K A and lost (-$10.33 net)
BTN showed A A and won $19.87 ($9.54 net)

against the BTN i would prob prefer calling that 4betting, because its hard to play against 5bet and we are more beat than not when there is 5bet involved. So yes, take flop, ch/r flops.


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I would (now) call 3 bet, fold vs. push. I think at this level a push preflop vs aggression is QQ+. I got stung on this a couple of days ago.


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nitrol
Joined: 24.07.2010

The fact that sometimes we will face his top of the range does not mean his range only beat us...


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So, can I check, it's generally OK to call an all-in with AKo vs. an unknown preflop?

In my case, it was a 3bb bet from me, raised to all in (100bb) from villain so I didn't have nearly so good pot-odds. I think my call was too loose.


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KingKas
Joined: 30.06.2012

The reason why going allin preflop with AKo versus an unknown is okay (not okay versus a NIT!, who ships only AA/KK), is the following:

Foldequity * pot (before the 4bet) + equity versus callingrange * pot (if allin) > 0

The foldequity makes up for the equity disadvantage when we're getting it in. We block AA,KK,AK,AQ etc. So he will be less likely to have a good hand, and will have to fold a lot more to the 4bet. So yes, versus unknown, it is okay. Versus someone, who only 3bets 2%, it is not okay. Because the fold equity will not be enough to make up for the equity disadvantage.


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Lathdari
Joined: 07.10.2014

The question was whether it's ok to call an all-in with AKo (both for OP and jmstone). So there isn't any fold equity, and the question is simply whether we have enough equity for the call. Kingkas answered that for OP at 16:27 on 25/2/15: we have 38.8% against his presumed range (in the absence of any information about his 4-bet range) and we need 37.6%, so call is +EV. Unfortunately the rake makes it -EV. The pot we stand to win (after rake) is $19.87 and the cost of calling is $7.83, so the actual equity needed to call is 39.4%. So OP's call on average costs him 12c (and tends to enrich the room at the expense of both players).

As a result I think 4-bet/call is wrong here. 4-bet/fold will be profitable if he is folding more than 73.5% of his 3-bet range here (based on the actual bet sizes). Against unknown I would say that was unlikely. But calling may also be unprofitable for the reason given by excitedpoker, although uglyboy88's line seems worth considering (i.e. call the 3-bet, x/r flop). Another possibility would be to 4-bet straight to all-in. Assuming that he is calling with {AA-QQ, AK}, so the pot equity is as before, I calculate that we need him to fold more than 64.6% of hands for this to be profitable. (64.6% of the time we win the $1.30 in the pot. The remaining 35.4% of the time we have paid $10.08 for a 38.8% chance of winning $19.87 (after rake), which means we lose $2.37 on average. Total EV is therefore zero.)

In jmstone's position, where an unknown pushes immediately over his OR, the pot odds are terrible, as he says. His required bet is 97BB, and the pot after rake will be some 191BB, so he needs some 50.1% equity to call. The problem is that villain's range is very uncertain. Against, say {TT+}, our equity is only 37%. Against {TT+, AJ+}, it is 54.2%. It's a fish move, so his range might be fairly wide, but on balance I think fold is best. Obviously if we've seen him do it before, that might change our decision.


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Lathdari
Joined: 07.10.2014

Of course just folding to the 3-bet is the simplest line here. That's definitely EV zero, whereas the other lines all depend on the Villain's (unknown) characteristics and might be positive or negative. In general AKo isn't a great hand to stack-off with or to play OOP, so perhaps fold is best.


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Grokken
Joined: 26.03.2011

Originally posted by Lathdari
Of course just folding to the 3-bet is the simplest line here. That's definitely EV zero, whereas the other lines all depend on the Villain's (unknown) characteristics and might be positive or negative. In general AKo isn't a great hand to stack-off with or to play OOP, so perhaps fold is best.

If we are folding AK to a 3bet from an unknown, wouldn't that be very exploitable? We would be folding almost our entire range and only continuing with QQ+. Our opponents could easily adjust by 3betting light and folding to 4bets. Going 4bet->call instead generates a decent amount of fold equity because we represent a strong range and have 2 blockers. Even when opponent shoves we usually have odds to call. Playing this way also helps you get value with QQ+ if villian knows you also take this line with AK.


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KingKas
Joined: 30.06.2012

On NL10 people are aggro enough to 4bet/call this hand easily.

Folding would be a big mistake, except you have reads.

Folding would be a mistake IMO.


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Lathdari
Joined: 07.10.2014

Originally posted by Grokken
Playing this way also helps you get value with QQ+ if villian knows you also take this line with AK.

This is correct, and paying the 12c for calling may be worthwhile to get more value in future with QQ+ provided that the opponents actually notice.

It would be exploitable to always r/f with AKo, but I assume that if villain is unknown to us, we are also unknown to villain. We will not be taking this line against regular opponents. If our opponents are "adjusting" by 3-betting light, we are reacting by 4-betting a wide range specifically against those opponents.


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Grokken
Joined: 26.03.2011

Originally posted by Lathdari

Originally posted by Grokken
Playing this way also helps you get value with QQ+ if villian knows you also take this line with AK.

This is correct, and paying the 12c for calling may be worthwhile to get more value in future with QQ+ provided that the opponents actually notice.

It would be exploitable to always r/f with AKo, but I assume that if villain is unknown to us, we are also unknown to villain. We will not be taking this line against regular opponents. If our opponents are "adjusting" by 3-betting light, we are reacting by 4-betting a wide range specifically against those opponents.

This is assuming villain is only going broke with AK, QQ+, if villain has a wider range we have odds to call. Since this is BTN vs CO on 10NL I think there is definitely a possibility that villain is shoving a wider range.


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