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strong combo draw played aggressively with deep stacks

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briccius
Joined: 26.06.2007

Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

Play hand

$0.01/$0.02 No-Limit Hold'em (5 handed)

Known players:
[tg]CO$3.74:///////;BU$4.32:///////;SB$4.88:///////;BB (Hero)$8.76:///////;MP3$5.34:///////;[/tg]

Preflop: Hero is BB with T:s, K:s.
2 folds, BU raises to $0.12, SB folds, Hero calls $0.10.

Flop: ($0.25) J:s, 2:s, Q:c (2 players)
Hero checks, BU bets $0.14, Hero raises to $0.56, BU calls $0.42.

Turn: ($1.37) 7:h (2 players)
Hero bets $1.36, BU raises to $3.63, Hero calls $2.27.

River: ($8.63) 8:c (2 players)

Final Pot: $8.63.
Results follow:

Hero shows high card king(T:s K:s).
BU shows a pair of kings(K:c K:h).

BU wins with a pair of kings(K:c K:h).
Did I play this hand ok?


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17 replies
VaskataBuci
Joined: 08.08.2011

He is giving you 26% pot odds to call the turn raise. If you put him only on a strong made hand (JJ+) we have 30 %, so i think the call is OK.


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GoOnCal1
Joined: 22.01.2015

Hey Briccius
I like to overbet the flop there.
As played I think you have to let it go on the turn.
I also consider rat holing on 2NL
Cheers


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briccius
Joined: 26.06.2007

1. Why do you think I need to let it go when I have the odds to call? Or do you think I don´t have the right odds bc he has so many nfds?

2. What is "rat holing"


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nitrol
Joined: 24.07.2010

By letting go he means x/call turn?


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VaskataBuci
Joined: 08.08.2011

I don't like x/c turn after we x/r flop. It would clearly reveal our hand. Since we are deep probably x/c flop and turn is better if we get the right odds.


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GoOnCal1
Joined: 22.01.2015

No I fold most likely on the turn re-raise, I think I am beat unless I hit, is no further equity on the river if we hit.
Maybe wrong, but I might make my decision cheaper or overcommit on the flop.
"Rat holing" is leaving the table with our over-stack, and resitting with our starting strategy stack at another table.


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nitrol
Joined: 24.07.2010

When 250+BB deep I prefer x/call flop and turn better.
I was asking GoOnCal1 if he meant x/call turn.


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gadget51
Joined: 23.06.2008

#1 People will often give you clues about what they hold at nl2 by the raise size. Is a 6x open raise normal for this villain? If not, he's telling you to be wary, he has a big hand usually.
#2 I think Rat-holing is when we build our initial buyin above a certain amount, we sit out and go to another table. We do this because we haven't the experience and/or knowledge to play using a big stack, especially versus other big stacks. A common move you will see is when someone doubles up their initial buyin and sits out.
With a 4BI stack may I suggest folding KT preflop and sitting out.


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GoOnCal1
Joined: 22.01.2015

Hey Nitrol
I enjoy reading your hand review posts !
You nail them in one line mostly :-)
On the turn the play is quite dependant on stacks? If we start the hand with 100BB it's a no brainer.


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nitrol
Joined: 24.07.2010

Originally posted by GoOnCal1
Hey Nitrol
I enjoy reading your hand review posts !
You nail them in one line mostly :)
It is a kind of poker haiku :)

You know what haiku is, right? :)

Gadget, he may stay and play, but he must pick up the right spots to be aggressive and not waste money chasing windmills...


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Alleen86
Joined: 27.05.2010

From what I've learnt from you about deep stack play latelly, I believe check/call the flop and turn with the flushdraw and check/fold the river without a flush would be the best. If you hit your flush, you can lead or check/raise turn (leading is probably better against unknowns) and lead the river.


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briccius
Joined: 26.06.2007

#1 People will often give you clues about what they hold at nl2 by the raise size. Is a 6x open raise normal for this villain? If not, he's telling you to be wary, he has a big hand usually.

On the deep tables this is a common raise size. Since there are antes, people generally like to raise bigger. Therefore, it does not necessarily give a clue about him actually holding a premium hand. I myself, for instance, will always open pot on these tables, which 6-handed first in is 6.5 bbs.

I bet pot on the turn so I would get the odds to call it off if he shoves. Also I want to apply max pressure on top pair type hands. I actually think a nfd would have to fold as well (see below for explanation). So when he tanked and shipped, I called. I do not know how GoOnCal1 wants to fold saying "he is most likely beat". We are on a draw and have a certain equity. Either we get the pot odds to call or we don´t.

And in this case we have the odds to call against any made hand with the exception of the nut flush draws (see below) because we have 15 clean outs.

So the decision depends on how many nfd combos there are in his range and whether that hurts our equity so much we have to fold. I think a good player would fold a pure nfd in his spot because he has no fold equity and calling is no good because he does not have enough implied odds (he is getting 1.36-to-5 implied odds, or 21%, when he has only 9 outs vs a made hand). Correct me if I miscalculated something. Still, he might of course have all nfd combos in this spot.

Even when he has the nfd, we still have the 6 straight out plus 6 pair outs, except vs AsQs (9 outs), so the question is can we make the call odds-wise vs his entire range or not. I think it should be a call but I will plug it into equilab to make sure.

I am not saying it is the only line. It is probably better on higher limits where people are more willing to fold top pair or overpairs in this spot. On the other hand, what really hurts the whole line is that the only probable value hands I represent on the flop are 22 and QJ since I would most probably 3bet QQ and JJ pre.


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sorry


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gadget51
Joined: 23.06.2008

Given the pot on the flop was 25, it doesn't show antes and I just assumed bigger stacks. This of course implies a different strategy, upon which I am transparently unqualified to comment so I'll withdraw from this one.

Have fun. :f_thumbsup:


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GoOnCal1
Joined: 22.01.2015

Its close, don't forget to put the rake in when you do the equlab


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briccius
Joined: 26.06.2007

Its close, don't forget to put the rake in when you do the equlab

How can I factor that in ?


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GoOnCal1
Joined: 22.01.2015

Pot =8.63 - rk0.86 / cl required 2.72 = 34.8%

Cheers, we lose $2.02 when we fold, and break even when we call, so its a clear call knowing he has Kings


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