Bluff catching advice

The pot river bet is for value. We should not call.

I'm not sure about flop and turn bets, but we probably have the best hand often enough. I would check/fold the river by default, especially vs this sizing.

We can x/call flop.

the player is a calling station I didn't mention that, I don't think I made a mistake with this line there are plenty worse hands and draws that can call and I can bluff catch quite profitably on the river, the area I need advice is on the river and bet size should I fold to this pot bet, if villain bets 3/4 or less is it more bluff heavy then a pot bet, should I just fold to the pot bet unless I get some notes on villain that he pot bet bluffs missed draws?

I think flop cbet is ok but I wouldn't bet turn. I have noticed that usually when villain bluff especially at NL2 and NL5 they bet pot. If turn goes check check we could bluff catch OTR but with your line we can't. When villain calls 2 streets and bet when you check I don't see it as a bluff. When bluff catching you should think about villains range and how the hand was played. If you look weak, villain is more likely to bluff and if you have underrepped your hand you can bluff catch more.

call F/ call T, bet R is for value...

Originally posted by la55i
I think flop cbet is ok but I wouldn't bet turn. I have noticed that usually when villain bluff especially at NL2 and NL5 they bet pot. If turn goes check check we could bluff catch OTR but with your line we can't. When villain calls 2 streets and bet when you check I don't see it as a bluff. When bluff catching you should think about villains range and how the hand was played. If you look weak, villain is more likely to bluff and if you have underrepped your hand you can bluff catch more.

please tell me how you cant see 2 diaomonds calling the flop and turn bet and bluffing the river, the only reason he bets the river is because he has 2 pair or he will check with a K6o after calling 2 bets.

i think you should all actually read what people are asking before replying on a hand, im asking about the river pot bet not the line i chose to take IMO there is nothing worong with that i gain value from many worse hands and bluff catch the river quite effectively vs this player, but again back to the POT BET on the river is it better to just give this size bet credit without any additional notes on the player?

I know now why people are telling me not to put results on, its because you cant see past the results

First of all, when I review hands I don't look at the results before I write down how I think this hand should have been played. Second, it is impossible to answer your question about the river pot size bet since you don't understand that it is not all about bet sizes. When someone calls your bets OTF and OTT you can't always expect them to call with draws. When you bet flop and turn and villain calls, it changes his range. When villain calls OTT he is probably playing with top part of his range. When you check river betting is villains only option to get more value. You have played this hand pretty strongly by raising 5x pre and betting 2 streets so you are not good target to bluff since you are likely to call his river bet. As I said before, if you had checked turn it would be more likely that villain tries to bluff here. I guess my opinion about that I don't see 2 diamonds calling 2 streets and bluff OTR when IP is based on my own experiences.

i agree with you that the top part of his range will only call 2 bets, but the top part does include some missed draws, and any top pair type hand will also most likely check back the river especially being a passive player that he is, witch leaves the river bet to be either 2 pair + or a bluff, but in my experience when you try to bluff catch a river bet that is full pot, you always seem to run into the very top of the range witch is 2 pair +, but if the bet is more like 2/3-3/4 its more bluff heavy, im asking if people agree with this from what they have experienced playing poker.

Witch leads me to my question should I just fold to a pot bet on the river when I have a bluff catching hand, without any additional notes on the player, that he bluffs missed draws with pot bets?

The answer is: Yes, you should fold.

So you agree with me that villain is most likely betting here with a very good hand. Then you have to understand this is not a bluff catching situation since villain is not bluffing very often. If there is no bluff, you can't catch it And what comes to a bet size, I would say that bigger bets like pot size is more bluff heavy at the micros. I rarely valuebet pot size because I think ppl won't call it very often. In these situations you end up vs very good hands if you bluff catch hands like this where it is not so likely that villain is bluffing.

his is a spot where you can bluff catch what are you talking about

Please quote here the part of my answer that you did not understand and I'll try to say it differently

Originally posted by la55i
So you agree with me that villain is most likely betting here with a very good hand. Then you have to understand this is not a bluff catching situation since villain is not bluffing very often.

Here, your looking at this based on this 1 hand in particular, im asking about the whole spot here it doesn't matter if we hold AK, KQ, KJ QQ JJ, in this exact same spot, i posted this hand because its the only 1 i could find with a pot bet on the river, this is a bluff catching spot.

in future i will definitely not show results

I really don't care putting any effort in this anymore... When bluff catching we have to think about the villain and we have to think about how the hand was played and from which positions etc.. I can't tell you to always fold to pot size bet on the river because that is just wrong. If villain had lost this hand I would still say to you it looks a lot like valuebet and I would tell you to fold. I believe everyone here thinks that this should be folded. I'm just trying to tell you why and why our line on the hand is relevant. I just feel you are getting angry with me and I don't understand why. If you have any similar hands please post them and we can give you our opinions about them.

You are asking if you should fold to a pot size bet on the river. There is no answer to that. Instead you should be asking if you should fold when villain limp calls from the button, calls 2 streets and bets pot to our check when there is possible FD that didn't complete and villain is loose passive..

Originally posted by la55i

You are asking if you should fold to a pot size bet on the river. There is no answer to that. Instead you should be asking if you should fold when villain limp calls from the button, calls 2 streets and bets pot to our check when there is possible FD that didn't complete and villain is loose passive..

Its obvious this is what im asking, yeah im getting thrustrated by this conversation because im not very well and were actually getting nowhere with this

in future ill make my myself very clear to what im asking

In general:
Your line of bet bet c/call river is pretty standard against fish, however I tend to do it with top pair or better (althought with better I might just 3 barrel most of the time)

When I don't have top pair I can see myself value betting 2 streets against flush draws or random hands as you did, but definitely folding river most of the time, especially against a pot size bet.

So yes, bluff catching pot size bets in the river against fish might be a leak...