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[Highlight] - We have to think the range through

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double2
Joined: 04.11.2008

Hi guys, member WilliamBoo posted this hand in the Hand Discusssion Threads, I thought it would give a very nice highlight example. Thanks William for posting and you for participating.

So here is the hand:

Originally posted by WilliamBoo
Hi! This villain doesn't fold a lot against cbets and tends to raise them. I did a x/r because a i want him to fold instead of me in an air vs air situation. What do you think?

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 7 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $19.75 (79 bb)
BB: $29.74 (119 bb)
MP1: $25.55 (102.2 bb)
Hero (MP2): $27.10 (108.4 bb)
MP3: $26.24 (105 bb)
CO: $30.22 (120.9 bb)
BTN: $59.51 (238 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A J
MP1 folds, Hero raises to $0.75, 2 folds, BTN calls $0.75, 2 folds

Flop: ($1.85) T 9 8 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $1.17, Hero raises to $3.51, BTN raises to $8.20, Hero folds

Results:

Spoiler

$8.87 pot ($0.40 rake)
Final Board: T 9 8
Hero mucked A J and lost (-$4.26 net)
BTN mucked and won $8.47 ($4.21 net)

The main point I want to make in this hand is this: just saying "let's do "X" do make villain fold his air" is not going far enough in our thought process. We have to think a bit harder on villain's pre flop call range + his bet/fold range in this board in particular.

So, Villain called BU vs MP2, a decent pre flop range would be: QQ,JJ,TT,99,88,77,AK,AQ,AJ,ATs,KQ,KJs,QJs,JTs,T9s

This is a range that it's also supported by the stats we have on villain. So, what type of hands are really "air" in this flop situation? Not much... Villain really does have a very strong range in this board (which should make us check 100% on the flop, but this is off topic), 88/99/TT/QJs/T9s/JTs/JJ/QQ/even KJs are not hands that villain will fold or that we will do well against. Arguably the only hands that villain might bet/fold are AK/AQ (if he bets them at all).

So, we've gone from a "let's check/raise to make him fold his air" to "he really does not have much air to fold, so maybe a x/f is in order"

I also want to adress another topic about this hand. This is, in my opinion, a nice example of misusing stats. First of all, I think this 1.2k hand sample is too small to be looking at raise cbet stat, specially given the FR format and the low VPIP (less post flop situations).
Secondly, I really believe that looking at this sort of stat should be in the bottom of our "to do list" regarding playing this situation well. It gives the false impression that you're doing something useful to help you decide the best play when in reality it helps you very very very little and even prevents you from thinking about more useful stuff, like the one we talked above.

So, as a conclusion:

[*] We have to think about villain's range and figure out what exactly is his "air", and if it's a big part or a small part
[*] Calling ranges against early position hit very well high card boards, and we should not expect too many folds in that case, so caution is the rule of thumb
[*] Stats should be used in context with everything else, they don't help you in isolation

Question: Is this a good exploitative spot to check/raise hands like QJs or top set?


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9 replies
Super Moderator
VorpalF2F
Joined: 02.09.2010

Originally posted by WilliamBoo
Hi! This villain doesn't fold a lot against cbets and tends to raise them. I did a x/r because a i want him to fold instead of me in an air vs air situation. What do you think?

Hi, all...
In this spot, OOP, vs a person who doesn't fold much, I'm holding my bluffs for later streets.
Although we have outs, some of them are poisoned. There are a lot of cards we're going to hate OTT -- those that give us a straight, but give him a better one (if he doesn't have it already)
OTT there are a lot of scare-cards, which might make our bluff profitable.

I'm not personally one to check/raise then fold, so my vote is for x/c, and play the turn.
I'm x/f the turn unless I get something worth playing.

I'm not against x/f OTF either.

Equilab gives you this vs double2's estimated range:

Board: T♦9♠8♦
       Equity     Win     Tie
MP3    43.32%  36.09%   7.23% { AcJd }
BU     56.68%  49.45%   7.23% { QQ-77, ATs+, KJs+, QJs, JTs, T9s, AJo+, KQo }

Enough for a call perhaps, but maybe not OOP

Cheers,
VS


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bonecore
Joined: 02.11.2009

x/r bluff on very drawy board ....
In this spot you should have top set or nut straight, or straight flush draw because this is what we represent


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ZZMidway
Joined: 09.10.2008

For me standard xc @ flop, avoid raises, sometimes we are behind, and our hand could improve.

On blank turn is easy xc again. On a diamond turn i would xc again. I will fold Kx, i have doubts with 6x but i would call, and on Jx i will fold.


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WilliamBoo
Joined: 11.06.2012

Wow thanks for this!

Yeah, i think i have to check first that range impact and THEN focus on tendencies.
I'm having trouble knowing when to let go my equity share.

So, in this case is it a x/f?
What if villain range was wider? i would hate to fold my semibluff type of hands againts his semibluffs.


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double2
Joined: 04.11.2008

Originally posted by WilliamBoo
Wow thanks for this!

Yeah, i think i have to check first that range impact and THEN focus on tendencies.
I'm having trouble knowing when to let go my equity share.

So, in this case is it a x/f?
What if villain range was wider? i would hate to fold my semibluff type of hands againts his semibluffs.

I think x/f AJ is here decent, specially if we do not have a diamond. If ranges were wider, say SB vs BB there is no way we should x/folding this situation. Both players ranges matter, this is a pretty basic but very important concept. The same hand on the same board (with the same SPR) is not "worth" the same in every ocasion.


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WilliamBoo
Joined: 11.06.2012

Ok, i started to put some numbers and even with the strong calling range you gave villain, he has a lot of draws which can be raising my cbet as a semibluff. Most of his Aces highs and no made hands consist of gutshots and OESD. Only a 32.6% is TP+ and i have 43% equity. Now i'm considering that is very weak to be x/folding there. And given that 54% of his range is made of draws, i can see my cbet being raised a lot here. So i think b/f is awful. I don't want to be x/calling oop with less 50% equity to spew later either. So my first x/r intention doesn't seem so bad. What about cbetting and going all in if he raises? (if he only calls, i think his range is face up towards mid strength value hands only).

What do you think? Sorry for my english!


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double2
Joined: 04.11.2008

I think bet/shoving is a very bad idea, since we are very very crushed against villain stack off range (which will contain mostly QJ, 9dXd, KdQd, sets). He would have to be folding to a shove an insane % of the time.

Regarding the check/raise or check/call. I definitely think that this is a situation where we should be checking a lot on the flop. As for what to do when we do face a bet i think it's already a headache situation. I think against villain sizing you can definitely call once with AJ if you want (but it's marginal and therefore a check/fold is okay, even if you find some semi-bluffs in villain's range). I don't like the check/raise option for the reasons I mentioned earlier, I don't think villain is folding much and we will face an ugly decision on the turn.


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GingerKid
Joined: 05.08.2007

QQ,JJ,TT,99,88,77,AK,AQ,AJ,ATs,KQ,KJs,QJs,JTs,T9s

Villain shoud fold all AQ, AK, KQ, KJs, 77 (without fd), which should be 40-50 combos depends what he is really betting and folding. Defending 88-TT (9 combos) for sure, 9Ts, 89s (4 combos) (if he even has them in preflop range, since many players will fold or 3bet it), JQs (4 combos) (similarly might not even have it), JJ (6 combos), QQ (6 combos) (might 3bet it), AJ (16 combos) (might 3bet it or fold as most players do). So defend would be 35-50 depending how he plays. Since there should be around 50% Fe with a cr in average, and AJ has decent equity, I think it is ok to cr or cc or cbet flop.


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next hand mach better :f_biggrin:


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