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KQs flop vs pot sized donk

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nitrol
Joined: 24.07.2010

Originally posted by MJPerry

Originally posted by YohanN7
You said that you didn't want to discuss pre-flop. Whether you like it or not, here's a piece of advice: KQ, whether suited or not, is one of the worst hands to 3-bet a UTG raiser with. Raising J♦:T♦: or even 7♦:6♦: is better. Can you see why?

I'm not sure I agree with that, KQ has blockers to KK/QQ/AK. I mean, it's too strong to 3bet bluff but if you're going to do it...

KQ, especially offsuited is perfect for bluff 3bet. It has blockers, it can make a stronger tp than JJ-99. You just have to be cautious postflop.


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Lathdari
Joined: 07.10.2014

Originally posted by nitrol

Originally posted by MJPerry

Originally posted by YohanN7
You said that you didn't want to discuss pre-flop. Whether you like it or not, here's a piece of advice: KQ, whether suited or not, is one of the worst hands to 3-bet a UTG raiser with. Raising J♦:T♦: or even 7♦:6♦: is better. Can you see why?

I'm not sure I agree with that, KQ has blockers to KK/QQ/AK. I mean, it's too strong to 3bet bluff but if you're going to do it...

KQ, especially offsuited is perfect for bluff 3bet. It has blockers, it can make a stronger tp than JJ-99. You just have to be cautious postflop.

Yes, I thought I remembered you as having said that in the past on a hand where I flatted it and you said I ought to have 3bet. As I see it, we need to decide what our 3bet bluff range is going to be: if we just bluff whenever we feel like it we'll end up with too many bluffs in our range and become exploitable. I've said previously that I'm not too worried about exploits at microstakes, but I think 3betting too wide is the sort of thing a lot of villains will notice. I think we do want to be 3betting the hands suggested by YohanN7 here, so our range ought to include {JTs-54s}. That's already 28 bluff combos and vs UTG how many value 3bets do we have? 34 combos? 22? (Obviously it depends on UTG, but we have no stats here.) So I'm not sure we have space to include KQ.

At least when suited KQ seems like it can reasonably be flatted. Against villain's entire opening range, we should be slightly ahead on any K-high or Q-high flop as well having the potential draws and monsters, and playing IP we can probably expect some profit in the long run, whereas against villain's 3bet calling range our TPs are doubtful so we're really fishing for flushes and straights if we get called.


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MJPerry
Joined: 03.10.2011

I actually disagree with Yohan because hands like 76s like a higher stack-to-pot ratio.


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Lathdari
Joined: 07.10.2014

You flat 76s vs UTG?


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MJPerry
Joined: 03.10.2011

I'd rather do that than 3bet it, yeah.


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Lathdari
Joined: 07.10.2014

Honestly, you should try it. The tilt value of 3betting 76s, cbetting a gs, completing and stacking off OTR is extreme.


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MJPerry
Joined: 03.10.2011

The actual value of implied odds is probably more extreme tbh.


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Lathdari
Joined: 07.10.2014

You can't reliably stack off when you complete in a 2bet pot. I really want to be mw to flat it, then at least one villain is likely to make some sort of hand to pay me off.


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Lathdari
Joined: 07.10.2014

Originally posted by Alleen86
I agree that Ax hands are good for bluff squeezes, but we don't need to be depolarized with squeezes when on blinds. For example, when UTG opens and BTN calls, we can squeeze KK+ and half combos of AKs for value and something like 98s-54s as a bluff. The reason is the same as it is with 3betting. We want to get opportunity to be aggressive when someone calls our bluff and we hit draws and backdoor draws. Those hand have a great playabilty postflop. If we miss flop, it's easy to check/fold.

(from this hand)

I take it you (MJPerry) are disagreeing with this comment? (As for me, I remain of the view stated in that post that it makes my life easier if I play SCs like this only IP.)


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MJPerry
Joined: 03.10.2011

I prefer to 3bet suited connectors like 98s OOP and things like KQ IP, because suited connectors play so well IP with a high SPR and domination issues are harder to deal with OOP.

I'm certainly not saying I would NEVER 3bet a hand like 76s but it's not in my default 3bet bluff range CO v MP or whatever. If we're deeper and I think I have a significant edge on the PFR then I'm 3betting way wider than just Axs etc.


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Gawdless73
Joined: 11.09.2015

Lots of excellent advice here.


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MJPerry
Joined: 03.10.2011

Originally posted by Gawdless73
Lots of excellent advice here.

I know it's almost like we're becoming a proper poker forum!


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nitrol
Joined: 24.07.2010

Originally posted by Lathdari
You flat 76s vs UTG?

76sis the perfect hand to flat when IP.


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nitrol
Joined: 24.07.2010

Originally posted by Lathdari
Honestly, you should try it. The tilt value of 3betting 76s, cbetting a gs, completing and stacking off OTR is extreme.

I prefer the chill of winning money with a steady rate...


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nitrol
Joined: 24.07.2010

Originally posted by Lathdari
You can't reliably stack off when you complete in a 2bet pot. I really want to be mw to flat it, then at least one villain is likely to make some sort of hand to pay me off.

No need to be mw to call this hand. If you have 76s and the board is A45r J8, wouldn't you try to go AI?


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nitrol
Joined: 24.07.2010

Originally posted by Lathdari

Originally posted by Alleen86
I agree that Ax hands are good for bluff squeezes, but we don't need to be depolarized with squeezes when on blinds. For example, when UTG opens and BTN calls, we can squeeze KK+ and half combos of AKs for value and something like 98s-54s as a bluff. The reason is the same as it is with 3betting. We want to get opportunity to be aggressive when someone calls our bluff and we hit draws and backdoor draws. Those hand have a great playabilty postflop. If we miss flop, it's easy to check/fold.

(from this hand)

I take it you (MJPerry) are disagreeing with this comment? (As for me, I remain of the view stated in that post that it makes my life easier if I play SCs like this only IP.)

I think you are mistaking 3 bet with squeeze.
Suited connectors are perfect for 3Bet when OOP.


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nitrol
Joined: 24.07.2010

Originally posted by Gawdless73
Lots of excellent advice here.

It is a long awaited act... I hope the forum will liven up.


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Lathdari
Joined: 07.10.2014

I know the difference between 3betting and squeezing, but Alleen86 said "The reason is the same as it is with 3betting", from which I understood he was also 3betting the same range. Maybe that's a mistake, idk, but I was interested to know what people thought about 3betting that range. You've said it's "perfect" OOP, which is helpful, so thank you for that.

Now I think about it, I can see that I've been going a bit wrong in that the high playability of SCs actually makes them comparatively good hands to be playing OOP.

If you have 76s and the board is A45r J8, wouldn't you try to go AI?

I'd certainly try, but I don't expect to get paid unless villain happens to have hit some 2P or set. So what I'm saying is that understand MJPerry's point about the stack:pot ratio, but it's a bit academic when the villain folds to our turn raise (or whatever). And yes, I realise that a 1% chance of winning 100BB is an EV of +1BB, but to get paid we need both to hit a monster and for villain to hit something he's willing to stack off, so it seems a really long shot.

Any way, I'm certainly willing to try flatting it. I suppose I need to check whether there are active squeezers behind?

If it's not too personal a question, what are you 3betting IP? Apart from KQo, obviously.


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nitrol
Joined: 24.07.2010

I am 3betting the strongest hands after my calling range...


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YohanN7
Joined: 15.06.2009

Originally posted by MJPerry
I actually disagree with Yohan because hands like 76s like a higher stack-to-pot ratio.

No, you disagree because you always disagree with me:P

Yes, 76s requires deeps stacks. I wrote so as well.


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