zoom KK

It is close between folding and calling OTR. JJ,TT,JT are definitely in villains range and I don't see him donking multiway and betting 3 streets with weaker holdings. Some straights and backdoor flush are also possible. Maybe it is better to fold?

Regarding the flop play, shouldn't we be raising his donk bet here?

Originally posted by andiofwbafc
Regarding the flop play, shouldn't we be raising his donk bet here?

Villain cold calls a 3bet OOP. What range do you think villain has when he donks flop multiway?

Originally posted by la55i

Originally posted by andiofwbafc
Regarding the flop play, shouldn't we be raising his donk bet here?

Villain cold calls a 3bet OOP. What range do you think villain has when he donks flop multiway?

AA - Would be a 4bet pre IMO.

QQ - We got crushed.

KQ - We got blockers, but not impossible. But I wouldn't donk flop multiway with this.

J10s - Folds pre IMO

JJ- Most likely holding, but I still feel like us raising is the best option here considering it's unlikely for him to have it.

TT - ^ Same

55- ^ Same

There was couple of problems..
QQ - might check and let the pre flop aggressor to do the betting. This hand doesn't need so much protection.
JTs - definitely in his calling range. He gets a good price pre flop and the hand is decent. Why would he fold that?
JJ - Why is it unlikely for him to have it? It is very much in his range and so is TT and 55.

So as you can see his range is very heavy on sets and 2 pair and there might only be some stupid hands that donked and those will fold to a raise -> no more value.

Originally posted by la55i
There was couple of problems..
QQ - might check and let the pre flop aggressor to do the betting. This hand doesn't need so much protection.
JTs - definitely in his calling range. He gets a good price pre flop and the hand is decent. Why would he fold that?
JJ - Why is it unlikely for him to have it? It is very much in his range and so is TT and 55.

So as you can see his range is very heavy on sets and 2 pair and there might only be some stupid hands that donked and those will fold to a raise -> no more value.

Thanks for your thoughts, just noticed this is NL5.

I am so used to NL2 that maybe that interfered with my thought process. I see people donking all the time with trash at this limit (NL2)

Is NL5 really that different?

PS - I expect the JJ, TT or 55 to check raise flop here, not donk it.

i wouldnt be surprised by j8

Originally posted by andiofwbafc

Originally posted by la55i
There was couple of problems..
QQ - might check and let the pre flop aggressor to do the betting. This hand doesn't need so much protection.
JTs - definitely in his calling range. He gets a good price pre flop and the hand is decent. Why would he fold that?
JJ - Why is it unlikely for him to have it? It is very much in his range and so is TT and 55.

So as you can see his range is very heavy on sets and 2 pair and there might only be some stupid hands that donked and those will fold to a raise -> no more value.

Thanks for your thoughts, just noticed this is NL5.

I am so used to NL2 that maybe that interfered with my thought process. I see people donking all the time with trash at this limit (NL2)

Is NL5 really that different?

It is a bit different than NL2 but not very much. Of course fish will donk something stupid here but they should fold their trash to a raise.
We don't have big enough sample yet so we can't go crazy with our overpair.

Originally posted by pokerplayernumber1
i wouldnt be surprised by j8

I would be extremely surprised. He should fold that pre. Villain is unknown so we shouldn't expect him to have that.

Originally posted by la55i

Originally posted by andiofwbafc

Originally posted by la55i
There was couple of problems..
QQ - might check and let the pre flop aggressor to do the betting. This hand doesn't need so much protection.
JTs - definitely in his calling range. He gets a good price pre flop and the hand is decent. Why would he fold that?
JJ - Why is it unlikely for him to have it? It is very much in his range and so is TT and 55.

So as you can see his range is very heavy on sets and 2 pair and there might only be some stupid hands that donked and those will fold to a raise -> no more value.

Thanks for your thoughts, just noticed this is NL5.

I am so used to NL2 that maybe that interfered with my thought process. I see people donking all the time with trash at this limit (NL2)

Is NL5 really that different?

It is a bit different than NL2 but not very much. Of course fish will donk something stupid here but they should fold their trash to a raise.
We don't have big enough sample yet so we can't go crazy with our overpair.

Would they not C/R the flop with their made sets here? I would have thought that would be a more optimal play.

Multiway there is always a risk that everyone checks OTF. If you have a strong holding multiway it is usually better to bet it yourself. x/r works too but I think those are equally good and villain can very often donk his sets.

Donking is good also because ppl do not know how to react to them. Very often their reaction is "wtf that guy just donked.. gonna raise that donkey". So it is a good way to induce raises

I would put villain on a tight range here that is heavy on sets and 2 pair. He might have some AJ too but I doubt we will get more value by raising.

Originally posted by andiofwbafc
Regarding the flop play, shouldn't we be raising his donk bet here?

Villain has midpsirs and hands that hit this flop well.

Originally posted by andiofwbafc

Originally posted by la55i

Originally posted by andiofwbafc
Regarding the flop play, shouldn't we be raising his donk bet here?

Villain cold calls a 3bet OOP. What range do you think villain has when he donks flop multiway?

AA - Would be a 4bet pre IMO.

QQ - We got crushed.

KQ - We got blockers, but not impossible. But I wouldn't donk flop multiway with this.

J10s - Folds pre IMO

JJ- Most likely holding, but I still feel like us raising is the best option here considering it's unlikely for him to have it.

TT - ^ Same

55- ^ Same

Well according to you we got the stonecold nuts.
All of these are possible.
He may play tricky with AA.
QQ do not need to sink. It xc here.
All the other hands you enlisted are in his range.

Originally posted by andiofwbafc

Originally posted by la55i
There was couple of problems..
QQ - might check and let the pre flop aggressor to do the betting. This hand doesn't need so much protection.
JTs - definitely in his calling range. He gets a good price pre flop and the hand is decent. Why would he fold that?
JJ - Why is it unlikely for him to have it? It is very much in his range and so is TT and 55.

So as you can see his range is very heavy on sets and 2 pair and there might only be some stupid hands that donked and those will fold to a raise -> no more value.

Thanks for your thoughts, just noticed this is NL5.

I am so used to NL2 that maybe that interfered with my thought process. I see people donking all the time with trash at this limit (NL2)

Is NL5 really that different?

PS - I expect the JJ, TT or 55 to check raise flop here, not donk it.

There is a difference but it is not that big.
On lower limits, villain can take extraodinary lines.

Originally posted by pokerplayernumber1
i wouldnt be surprised by j8

JTs is more possible.

Originally posted by andiofwbafc

Originally posted by la55i

Originally posted by andiofwbafc

Originally posted by la55i
There was couple of problems..
QQ - might check and let the pre flop aggressor to do the betting. This hand doesn't need so much protection.
JTs - definitely in his calling range. He gets a good price pre flop and the hand is decent. Why would he fold that?
JJ - Why is it unlikely for him to have it? It is very much in his range and so is TT and 55.

So as you can see his range is very heavy on sets and 2 pair and there might only be some stupid hands that donked and those will fold to a raise -> no more value.

Thanks for your thoughts, just noticed this is NL5.

I am so used to NL2 that maybe that interfered with my thought process. I see people donking all the time with trash at this limit (NL2)

Is NL5 really that different?

It is a bit different than NL2 but not very much. Of course fish will donk something stupid here but they should fold their trash to a raise.
We don't have big enough sample yet so we can't go crazy with our overpair.

Would they not C/R the flop with their made sets here? I would have thought that would be a more optimal play.

It is lower limits and players play 100 years there exactly because they do not play the optimal plays.
If they learn optimal they will move to higher limits.

The river can go both ways.
If you called, make a note.

This time villain was indeed tricky and showed AA, I made a note.

Which proves that players use different lines from us sometimes and we should not exclude them that easy.