Fold JJ against SD and overcard?

We cannot call down river. Our hand is not worth 3 streets of value.
We can bet flop, bet turn, x river. Or we can bet flop, xc turn, x river.

Originally posted by bobocop

Originally posted by nitrol

Originally posted by bobocop
I don't get it why we can call one bet on the Kxx flop. What would villain bet with there and why? What do you expect if you call? Hit J on the turn? Or expect him to give up?

When we x, he can stab with medium Pairs, or if he is too active with a wider range.

Ok, but if we think we're good on the flop, shouldn't we call down turn and river too?
Or if we're folding the turn (which doesn't change a thing because A4 is only a small part of his range), why we were calling flop anyways?

My point is, why do you think you're loosing on the turn, when you thought you could be good on the flop? Because of possibility that the opponent could stab the pot? Just to make sure that he's not stealing the pot you risk 8 big blinds and it's ok?...but why couldn't he stab the turn also if we think he could stab the flop?

Trying to find holes in my reasoning, thanks for reply

Calling turn is sometimes ok, depending on villain and turn card. Calling river is too much..
When you stab flop with air and get called, do you keep stabbing turn and river with air when villain keeps on calling?

When villain bets flop, he still has very wide range. Every bet after that usually narrows villains range down. If he bets 3 streets, he is usually very strong. So we can't call river just because we could call flop. Villains range changes.

The original hand for reference:

Originally posted by wehleef
Poker Stars $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

BTN: $1.40
SB: $7.07
Hero (BB): $3.09
UTG: $1.60
MP: $1.02
CO: $0.25

Pre Flop: ($0.03) Hero is BB with J J
3 folds, BTN raises to $0.06, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.18, BTN calls $0.12

Flop: ($0.37) 3 K 2 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $0.18, Hero calls $0.18

Turn: ($0.73) 5 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $0.34, Hero folds

...

Preflop is fine.

Flop is fine too, as would be betting. The thing is that you cannot fire 100% of flops, or always fold when you check. This hand could well fit into a check-calling range.

Turn: Easy call. Reason: Pot odds. True, you aren't drawing, but you don't want villain to be able to steal pots with min-bets. You are bluff catching. Call and see what happens OTR.

EDIT: Misread turn bet size. It is not an EASY call. It is very borderline, and folding is not wrong.

Don't you think that we should have a plan if he calls our 3bet. I mean, if we plan to cbet on Axx, Kxx, Qxx boards then 3betting is fine, but if we want to play passively against this guy, then we should just Cold call pre to keep the pot smaller, and play way in front, way behind on this board postflop?

I'm also just beginner, so I would like more experienced players to tell me if I'm wrong in this.

We can 3bet this hand pre flop for value. We don't know yet if we are going to check or bet the flop so it doesn't affect our pre flop decision.
So basically we can not decide what we do on the flop before seeing it.

No, no. We will attack Axx, Kxx,Qxx boards.

Originally posted by la55i
We can 3bet this hand pre flop for value. We don't know yet if we are going to check or bet the flop so it doesn't affect our pre flop decision.
So basically we can not decide what we do on the flop before seeing it.

So, we are raising it for value, without a plan what we will do if he calls us and overcard comes on flop?? I'm sorry but I can't agree with that.
Secondly, do we really have to have check calling range on NL2 vs random halfstack?

Don't get me wrong, I believe you are right if we are playing higher stakes, but in this situation isn't it a bit overthinking?

Oly909, you are not reading what I write... We have a plan, we will attack those boards.
Nothink to overthink here, just good straightforward poker for value...

Yup.. we 3bet for value pre flop and this flop is very good to cbet. So our plan is to cbet even when there is an overcard.
If hero checks and villain bets, we can call one street because villain definitely has a lot of weaker hands in his range. He can stab as a bluff or he can bet for value with his pocket pairs because he thinks we didn't hit anything.

I think on this limit, with this particular hand, we are cbetting almost any flop.

Originally posted by nitrol
Oly909, you are not reading what I write... We have a plan, we will attack those boards.
Nothink to overthink here, just good straightforward poker for value...

My comments were directed to la55i and partly to YohanN7 (about x/c range). I think exactly as you said, but just asking, wouldn't it be better for hero, if he don't want to attack this bords for some reason to just coldcall preflop?

Originally posted by la55i
Yup.. we 3bet for value pre flop and this flop is very good to cbet. So our plan is to cbet even when there is an overcard.
If hero checks and villain bets, we can call one street because villain definitely has a lot of weaker hands in his range. He can stab as a bluff or he can bet for value with his pocket pairs because he thinks we didn't hit anything.

I think on this limit, with this particular hand, we are cbetting almost any flop.

+1

Just one more question. If BTN is unknown full stack on NL2 what would be best play. 3bet/shove, 3bet/fold, coldcall?

3b/call shove.

Originally posted by nitrol
3b/call shove.

Thanks nitrol, la55i and YohanN7 agree?

If villain is unknown I think I would 3bet and go broke pre flop from these positions. This might not sound super good but I think it is the best move. 3bet folding seems too weak with this holding and just calling has its own problems.

Against QQ+,AQs+,AKo we have around 40% equity and sometimes we will see villain going broke with TT+,KQs,JTs,AJo etc hands so it is not that bad.

You have to 3-bet JJ pre, for value and because it is just going to be so difficult to play JJ post without the betting lead and out of position.