SH T8s, Turn Pair + OESD + FD in 3bet Pot

It's not a good idea to bluff OTT with marginal hand. As you played check/call seems best option. If we bet OTT we risk to get raised and fold tons of equity. Bet OTR if you hit.

Looks well played to me.

Originally posted by LuckyLucianooo
It's not a good idea to bluff OTT with marginal hand. As you played check/call seems best option. If we bet OTT we risk to get raised and fold tons of equity. Bet OTR if you hit.

It is a semibluff. We have a monster draw and around 32% equity against sets only. And because villain just called our bet OTF he looks week = by check raising we should have very good fold equity.

We wouldn't fold to a raise having umpty-seven outs. If he folds and we win with a pair of eights and no kicker it is good as well. It is also important to have initiative OTR if we hit. We'll get much loser calls than if we check-call + donk.

Between betting turn and check-raising, it is a matter of personal ranges. A check-raising range should not be composed of nuts only and this hand seems like a nice candidate for a bluff.

Villian is unknown and we cannot conclude that he is weak just because he calls OTF. Also it's a mistake to 3bet such a weak hand from SB.

We must have some kind of bluff 3bet range. This hand is a 3bet bluff so it doesn't have to be a strong hand. SB vs CO we can use this kind of suited one gappers as a 3bet bluff and it is totally fine.
Even if villain is unknown, we can think that he is weak here because the population tendencies show us that ppl very often raise with sets, so we should have good fold equity.
Even if villain has sets only OTT, we have over 30% equity. It is ok to x/r OTT. Villain will fold a lot. If he calls with a strong draw also we have a chance to win him with pair of eights. If he calls with a made hand, we have good equity.

I prefer to xc turn. It is a standard move with p+draw.

Bluff 3bet should be with type of hands that have blockers A2-A5s QJ KJ KQ.
So you telling me that it's ok to stack off with 30-35% equity?

T8 3bet PF is marginal but OK from my point of view.
Turn I would never check raise here.
He's never folding sets, he could have QJ which gives him TP + OESD.
Check call to keep the pot small

Originally posted by LuckyLucianooo
Bluff 3bet should be with type of hands that have blockers A2-A5s QJ KJ KQ.
So you telling me that it's ok to stack off with 30-35% equity?

OOP we want to 3bet bluff mostly with speculative hands, like suted connectors and gappers. I don't think the preflop play should be questionable these days, especially vs 2x raise. la55i is saying that we have this equity vs sets only and his range is certainly not sets only, especially considering how he played the flop.

For me is the opposite. Our 3bet range should be stronger OOP and wider IP especially from SB where BB is behind us and have to act.

Originally posted by bigdog63
T8 3bet PF is marginal but OK from my point of view.
Turn I would never check raise here.
He's never folding sets, he could have QJ which gives him TP + OESD.
Check call to keep the pot small

With umpty-seven outs the objective is not to keep the pot small. The only advantage to checking is in the unlikely event it goes check-check turn and river an the eights hold up. QJ does not give him TO + OESD. Besides, TP hands are likely to bet, so we might as well bet, thereby choosing the sizing, keeping initiative should we hit. The advantage of a check-raise is that all pairs should fold (whether they do fold is another matter:D (take a note if they don't) - we still have umpty-seven outs).

Good discussion but I am a little bit conservative in this and would xc here but it is not bad to shove, that is for sure but you won't be called my worse.

Originally posted by YohanN7

Originally posted by bigdog63
T8 3bet PF is marginal but OK from my point of view.
Turn I would never check raise here.
He's never folding sets, he could have QJ which gives him TP + OESD.
Check call to keep the pot small

With umpty-seven outs the objective is not to keep the pot small. The only advantage to checking is in the unlikely event it goes check-check turn and river an the eights hold up. QJ does not give him TO + OESD. Besides, TP hands are likely to bet, so we might as well bet, thereby choosing the sizing, keeping initiative should we hit. The advantage of a check-raise is that all pairs should fold (whether they do fold is another matter:D (take a note if they don't) - we still have umpty-seven outs).

Too expensive. .. xc is better for me. Do not pump pot.
Plus our line is strange and many will call us.

Originally posted by nitrol

Originally posted by YohanN7

Originally posted by bigdog63
T8 3bet PF is marginal but OK from my point of view.
Turn I would never check raise here.
He's never folding sets, he could have QJ which gives him TP + OESD.
Check call to keep the pot small

With umpty-seven outs the objective is not to keep the pot small. The only advantage to checking is in the unlikely event it goes check-check turn and river an the eights hold up. QJ does not give him TO + OESD. Besides, TP hands are likely to bet, so we might as well bet, thereby choosing the sizing, keeping initiative should we hit. The advantage of a check-raise is that all pairs should fold (whether they do fold is another matter:D (take a note if they don't) - we still have umpty-seven outs).

Too expensive. .. xc is better for me. Do not pump pot.
Plus our line is strange and many will call us.

You're right. Check-raising is a strange line. I am advocating aggression in one way or another, preferably by keeping betting for the reasons already stated.

EDIT: Main point is that if you check and call (costs as much as betting), then when a Q, a 7 or a comes, you'll have big problems extracting money. By being agro, you can represent something weaker that flush/straight and get it in OTR.

The problem with betting is that we cannot call if villain pushes...

Of course. (But that depends on how much you bet.) There are upsides and downsides with every play in every situation. I just think that maintained initiative is worth more than protecting what we have in a still fairly small pot, due to all outs.