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Calling CO open w ATo on BU, floating flop

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briccius
Joined: 26.06.2007

888 Poker - $0.10 NL (6 max) FAST - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG: 66.4 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 6)
MP: 457.2 BB (VPIP: 60.00, PFR: 30.00, 3Bet Preflop: 25.00, Hands: 10)
CO: 98.5 BB (VPIP: 4.55, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 23)
Hero (BTN): 218.7 BB
SB: 44.1 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 50.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 6)
BB: 144.2 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 21.43, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 14)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has T♣ A♠

fold, fold, CO raises to 2.2 BB, Hero calls 2.2 BB, fold, BB calls 1.2 BB

Flop: (7.1 BB, 3 players) 6♠ Q♥ 5♠
BB checks, CO bets 3.5 BB, Hero calls 3.5 BB, fold

Turn: (14.1 BB, 2 players) 9♦
CO checks, Hero checks

River: (14.1 BB, 2 players) K♦
CO checks, Hero checks

CO shows J♠ J♦ (One Pair, Jacks)
(Pre 71%, Flop 83%, Turn 93%)
Hero shows T♣ A♠ (High Card, Ace)
(Pre 29%, Flop 17%, Turn 7%)
CO wins 13.3 BB

Pre: What are your thoughts on flatting vs 3bet here?

Flop: when you float this flop, should you stab the turn only on spades and broadway draws or would you stab wider, e.g on this turn?

Thanks for your opinions.


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17 replies
Dadramel
Joined: 10.08.2014

First off, I wouldn't mind seeing a 3bet there, pre-flop.
Second of all, what's with the flop call, you have basically nothing in 3way, give up.


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la55i
Joined: 27.01.2013

Vs 3bb open I would always 3bet pre flop. Vs 2.2bb I think it is decent option to flat but still I like 3betting more.
OTF you have some backdoor draws but calling here is often just burning money.


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scopinad
Joined: 13.06.2015

Preflop: offsuit aces, do not call raises with less than AQo+, and of course then get wider from there depending on personal choices, but ATo is no calling hand imo.

Flop: I would not float with overcards. If you are heads-up on the flop you could think about a nice idea of bluff raising with overcards here.


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Mozzek
Joined: 16.07.2016

I´m also for 3 bet PF. Then probably c bet, but depends on the opponent.


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nitrol
Joined: 24.07.2010

I think that 3b is ok preflop.
With 2 backdoors we can float.


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oI2ange
Joined: 21.07.2015

I would bet the turn as played. You can still get him to fold a lot of better Ax and maybe even something like a pocket pair. You lose to too many other Ax to just check down IMO.


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Lacolinos9
Joined: 28.04.2015

3-betting is definitely an area of my game that I need to improve on, so I'm also eager for any advice here, as I'd have been inclined to bluff on a later street (and this may well be a leak in my game...) As villain would rarely fold pocket JJ to 3-bet, I'm not sure what would be gained by it. Is the idea that hero would be representing a stronger hand which could then be exploited when the Q or K hits? If that's the case, could he not have still done this after flatting, if he'd bet out on a later street?


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la55i
Joined: 27.01.2013

The idea of a 3bet bluff is not to represent stronger hands and bluff them postflop, it is to get folds pre flop.
ATo is not a great hand to play OOP. If you hit an ace, you might very well be dead. So we want to make villain fold pre flop by bluffing and ATo is decent hand to do that because it has a blocker and it can make a straight.
Also average villain often folds too much vs 3bets and you get autoprofit.


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MisterSnS
Joined: 09.11.2011

Flatting for 2,2bb open is reasonable and definitely good. We play the same site/stake btw. :) I have the feeling people don't fold enough preflop to always 3bet here, therefore I personally like flatting more.

Now, since it's a 3-way situation the openraiser is less likely to be bluffing. Therefore I would just fold the flop. No need to continue... even with backdoors. In a single-way pot you can't fold this hand. But as played, betting the turn is a reasonable option because Villain cbets small and doesn't reveal a lot of strength by checking and you can bet out the middlepair-part of his range, and maybe get called by flushdraws that you are ahead with your ahigh


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briccius
Joined: 26.06.2007

Thx for pointing out the mw aspect. That should make it a flop fold (I think I missed that when I posted the hand). As for turn play, I cannot be sure he is checking to fold JJ,TT and I do not like targeting only 88,77, since they might still call with a gutshot (might even have continued barrelling, same goes for flush draws). So I like turn check better.


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MisterSnS
Joined: 09.11.2011

If you like to check the turn more, how often do you think are you ahead? Often enough to checkback the river? What was your initial goal in calling the cbet?


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plopfessional
Joined: 21.09.2016

Many of you guys suggested 3betting ATo pre. What do you suggest as a range to 3bet vs COs 2,2BB open? Do we aim at 12% 3bet (not suggesting this is bad in this scenario)?
However, CO is 5/0 over 23 Hands. Is it really likely he folds a lot to 3bets? Also ATo is a bad hand to call pre in most situations. How many bets are you going to pay on an A high flop?
As played: You should not call to many flop bets here or you are folding to much on turns. As is a particulary bad card to call because villain is less likely to have draws. Also if you call here, I think you have to bluff at some point in the hand because you do not beat anything at all.
If(!) you dont do this too often I also like a raise here otf. You have the As, so it is less likely you get called, since you block AAs, AsQ, AsXs.


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MisterSnS
Joined: 09.11.2011

In particular, we get the correct odds to call preflop. Because we have position we can do a lot of stuff to win more than 0bb/100.

For 3betting, I would suggest to not go too crazy and use a ~50/50 Value/Bluff Range here. Mostly I 3bet small suited aces, and some other random suited hands for board coverage. Vs. Unknowns you can also go wider because they don't know you. But because it's 10NL I would not do this unless I know the Opponent is an average reg who doesn't know how to defend vs. 3bets.

But if my opponent makes it small preflop (e.g. 2bb open) you can actually defend even wider and call all off-suited broadways. W34z3l has a pretty good video on that topic. Just check his summer success series


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briccius
Joined: 26.06.2007

If you like to check the turn more, how often do you think are you ahead? Often enough to checkback the river? What was your initial goal in calling the cbet?

Those are good questions, and I was floating the cbet with the rather general idea of a) being ahead of his opening range, b) either calling or stabbing a turn that would increase my equity (especially a spade). I was not sure whether I should also stab on other turns and that is what I asked in my opening post.

On this particular turn, I think I am not ahead very often, but I also do not think I have a lot of fold equity unless I barrel turn and river. And I do have some SD value.

That is why I checked it down.


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plopfessional
Joined: 21.09.2016

Thanks for the reference. W34z3l suggests 13% 3bet. That guy is annoying as fuck to have on your left
JJ+, AQs+, A8s-A2s, K9s-K6s, Q9s-Q8s, J8s-J7s, 97s, 86s, AKo, ATo-A9o, KJo-KTo, QJo
I really like a lot of his ranges.


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briccius
Joined: 26.06.2007

Yeah, thx for the reference from me, too. I finally got some copying and pasting done in equilab. After all, it all starts preflop...
:f_thumbsup:


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MisterSnS
Joined: 09.11.2011

13% though, is wider than optimal and I would only use that exact range (as a whole) if my opponent folds too much to 3bets. Versus thinking opponents who bluff4bet I wouldn't use it. Made the mistake too often, to just copy some ranges and didn't tailor them to my opponents :)


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