QQ bluffcatcher OOP in multiway 3b pot

As played, betting the flop is completely OK, however, the size is very bad IMO. If you want to make FDs pay for their equity, make it AT LEAST half pot size, if not larger. Also second best hands pay you off here a lot of the time (overpairs and stuff), no reason to bet this small.

Check turn I think is fine, the card is scary, worse hands won't pay you off, better hands won't fold. The river is a clear fold in my book, the bet is too big to call, Villain is unknown so I wouldn't automatically assume he will bluff OTR a lot and the board is too wet.

Also consider what he has in his range if he raised preflop UTG and then flatted a 3Bet being in a sandwich position. Because you bet so small OTF, you didn't "scare off" any AKs, AQs type of hand that might be in his range. If he indeed hit his A on the turn and checked it, he played it well, because as you said yourself, if he bet the turn, you wouldn't have paid him off. Just fold and be done with it.

Alternative and better line IMO is betting the river smallish (let's say 1/3 pot as a kind of a "blocker" bet). If you get raised, it is an easy fold, on the other hand, if you are ahead, you might get paid off by some worse hands.

As for preflop, I am not completely sure, as I don't play that much 6max and a lot of people will tell you that pocket QQ is default stack off preflop. However, considering an UTG raise, BTN 3bet, I would be afraid what UTG would do, so flatting is fine here IMO.

Originally posted by MrHappie
If you want to make FDs pay for their equity, make it AT LEAST half pot size, if not larger. Also second best hands pay you off here a lot of the time (overpairs and stuff), no reason to bet this small.

The thing is I don't want to bloat the pot (it's already multiway 3b), as chasers in NL5 will call anyway nearly regardless of betsizing (would have to bet like 2$), and I could get shoved or raised on the flop by worse hands. My goal here is to lose as little as possible if that happens. Poker theory wise betting small also entices worse hands like 99 to call.

Originally posted by c0wking

Originally posted by MrHappie
If you want to make FDs pay for their equity, make it AT LEAST half pot size, if not larger. Also second best hands pay you off here a lot of the time (overpairs and stuff), no reason to bet this small.

The thing is I don't want to bloat the pot (it's already multiway 3b), as chasers in NL5 will call anyway nearly regardless of betsizing (would have to bet like 2$), and I could get shoved or raised on the flop by worse hands. My goal here is to lose as little as possible if that happens. Poker theory wise betting small also entices worse hands like 99 to call.

The "chasers" as you call them are a good, not a bad thing, because they ignore pot / implied odds and are fairly obvious. When you can, you want to punish them by making them pay more for their draws and can get easily away from the hands when it is obvious that they hit their draw. Plus unless you have more info on Villains, I wouldn't automatically assume that the average NL5 player is a "chaser". The reasoning behind not wanting to bloat the pot is wrong IMO, you can't play scared and expect to win the pot and get maximum value out of your opponents which should be your ultimate goal. Playing passively OOP unless Villain is very aggressive and bluffing a lot is a recipe for disaster, as you have virtually no information whatsoever on Villain's strength.

If you don't want to play a bloated pot, then, even if it sounds weird, folding preflop is a better option here against a UTG raise and a BTN 3Bet. You are guaranteed to be OOP for the whole hand. How are you gonna win the pot? Betting small on flop, checking till the end and hoping Villain doesn't hit and checks it down? That sounds like a losing play in most situations to me. Additionally, you don't get the right price / SPR for a set mine so that is out of the question.

Also, if Villain raised preflop UTG with 99 and called a 3Bet in a sandwich position, he is not folding his pocket pair on this board anyway even if you bet half pot. So even if you assume he has something like 99 or TT, you are missing out on value.

If you get raised / shoved OTF, you evaluate and act accordingly. If I get shoved OTF on this board by an unknown Villain who has played pretty standard till now, it is an insta fold and I won't even think about it, as the SPR OTF was like 3.5, so we are by no means committed with our overpair.

Unknown NL5 6max zoom player should always be treated as a chaser. AKd, AQd or AJd is never, ever going to fold this flop to a 60% pot bet.

I'm not playing the pot scared hoping to check to river (donking into a multiway 3b pot is hardly playing passive), I can barrel turn on good cards and they will still call anything I bet on turn if they have a draw.

Question, what would you do on the turn if you bet 66-70% pot on the flop and turn is 9 of diamonds? Or if you bet like 60% pot and they both flat?

Alright, then if you treat him / them as chasers, then I would like to see a bigger bet. Make the chaser pay.

If I bet 2/3 pot OTF (around 0.82 in this example), then the pot is something like 2.9 if one calls or 3.7 if both call. If both call and the turn comes the 9d, I very probably shut down and go into check / fold mode, hoping to miraculously get to showdown. If not and one of the Villains bets big, I think I am almost surely beat, bluffing in MW pots is much rarer unless you have sufficient info, so I fold.

If only one calls as in your actual hand, I check the turn and see what the Villain does. If he does check behind, then I bet river smallish 1/4 - 1/3 hoping to get called by worse hands to get value out of them. If I get raised OTR, it is an easy fold in my mind. If Villain bets very big OTT, I probably fold.

I would not call QQ here preflop. We want to bloat the pot pre but not anymore OTF.

As played, I'd fold this hand OTR. There are too much better hands that bet river that large.

The way I see this @MrHappie.

With no callers, we got away with optimal betsizing, losing as little as possible when we get raised.

With two callers, we just lose less by betting slightly less on the flop.

With one caller, by going to check mode against a diamond OTT you're...

A.) capping your range and giving your hand away against any bluff (pretty common in NL5)
B.) giving opponent's entire range a dangerous free river card (diamond, four, ace etc)
C.) not getting value out of hands we beat
D.) not generating fold equity

Since we bet less on the flop, we can easily barrel turn even on a non-horrible diamond (it will still cost less than 66% pot bet + 1/3 river value bet), it doesn't have to be 60% pot or anything, another 40% will do (even 33% could be enough). If we get raised OTT, easy fold. If villain bets anything than a tiny amount on river on cards we check with, easy fold.

One thing we IMO need to keep in mind here is that we are in a MW pot. I tend to try (and think it is absolutely necessary) to keep things as simple and straightforward as possible in MW pots. You don't really want to bluff catch OTR to a pot sized bet in a 3Bet MW pot against an unknown Villain OOP with a clunky overpair (or even worse, second pair) on an extremely wet board (it sounds pretty bad, doesn't it?), that is in my eyes just suicidal. Big bluffs OTR are not that common (at least not in my NL5 games).

I am not saying that we always check to any diamond OTT - but I would commit to betting OTT, check/calling or even check/raising bluffs and semi-bluffs probably only after having more sufficient info on Villains and after having a good plan for future play OTR. Also seeing that both Villains don't seem to deviate from standard play so far (and don't have really fishy stack sizes to support the hypothesis that they are bad players), I would advise against presuming that everyone at NL5 is an idiot and plays like one.

Also, I don't think that you are everytime getting value out of hands you beat OTT if you bet (if the Ad comes, for sure not, if the 9d comes, yes, sometimes, but a lot of people are well capable of folding TT or JJ in this spot, especially without a diamond, but that is kinda moot for the conversation about this particular hand). Betting OTT can be a valid line here, especially if you had the Qd in your hand. In a HU pot, I am betting OTT on most diamond cards in this spot. MW probably not so much.

I don't really like the smaller bets, because you are almost inviting chasers to chase (which is fine, we want them to chase, but to pay a premium doing so) and "bluffers" to bluff you which, especially when you are OOP, sucks.

Villains are practically unknown as hand sample is too small. So with limp+Call in front we should 3b with our hand. We do not want to play OOP mw.
Why do you xf turn but xc river?