Extracting value with a set on a wet board

We should raise flop to 21bb here. When raising for value, I believe the best +EV is betting turn as well. Villain will have a stronger range now but I don't expect a higher set since that one would raise your bet OTF (board is still a bit drawy with 2 hearts). On turn, I believe only KK would beat you here IMO so we bet 1/2 pot to lure weaker hands (when try to bet bigger, villain for sure will fold TT and QQ and we don't want that).

Generally preflop you should avoid calling vs BTN with 22 as most people open extremely wide from that position and you will rarely get paid when u hit while u will often be forced to surrender postflop OOP. Since BTN seems like an extreme nit, i guess calling is ok.

When he calls u on the flop the best line is to continue betting the turn for value as his range is pretty much AA-QQ with the occasional AhKh/AhQh/KhQh. On the turn u r still very much ahead and the good news is some of his draws picked up a TP so he is unlikely to fold. Just keep betting as u would when u actually have flush draws. On micros straightforward play with monster hands is almost always preferable to making strange plays and put yourself in situations u r not comfortable with.

As played, just raise/call the turn.

Originally posted by Fanko
Generally preflop you should avoid calling vs BTN with 22 as most people open extremely wide from that position and you will rarely get paid when u hit while u will often be forced to surrender postflop OOP.

Hmm.. First Q8s from CO and now this I would really like to know what kind of ranges are you playing and why you can't make money with those hands.
Imo openin 22 from BB is very standard. Generally BTN steal size is smaller than 4bb so we often have to call only 1 or 2 BBs. That makes it profitable setmine.

This time you don't have to ask me to filter my database because I did it already
22 - +65bb (203 hands)

Even though I think this should be pretty clear, I still checked some ranges from different coaches and Snowie.
Weazel has 22 as a call BBvBTN, so does Robmaf and Snowie. Janda put this hand as a 3bet bluff for some reason but would call 33.

The only reason for me to fold 22 pre-flop is that the BTN is a nit and you only call for set value, because he has most likely a tighter range that he should and his 4x raise is suspicious as well.

I’m not sure why you are checking the turn. I would always bet for value and protection with our set. Now you will lose value if he’s checking behind and if he has KK it’s a cooler I think.

Cheers,
SDK1987

I agree you should lead on the turn. You lose to much value if it checks through. If he shoves over your bet, I think you have to call. He's just too likely to be overplaying AA and will occasionally show up with QQ, AJ+ type hands. A fair amount of times he has you beat with JJ or KK of course, but not nearly as often to justify
folding to a big bet.

Well, u r calling a hand with terrible playability out of position vs the widest range in the game. It should be pretty clear why u cannot do that profitably. Vs a nit u can setmine, because he will pay you off often enough. Vs a normal player it is an easy fold or 3bet.

I can see some sense in it indeed. However, OOP BB vs BTN we have more opportunities than just setmining. For instance, when broad ranges have a higher F2x/r OTF when board is very low. In other words, we can attack low boards as well by x/r a lot vs villain. This is just one idea that I am working on atm
Let me know what you think.

Problem is you need good information on villain and you need him to be quite bad, as most reasonable players will not bet/fold IP often enough to make your bluffs profitable in the long run. The next logical step is that you continue barreling turn and river on scary cards and cards that can finish multiple draws. That actually starts working on NL 50 + but I am pretty sure on the micros calling 22-44 OOP vs Steal is pretty bad in general. I mostly just fold them, unless huge nit (we have implied odds to call) or super loose steal but fold a lot to 3bet (over 75%).

Thank you all for contribution, as far as calling 22 here goes, when nits or even players on the tighter side open 4x it is very often an big pair or AK and they dont balance this with T9s type hands and even if they attempt to they dont do it right so the chances of this being a premium hand is big, so I called because of implied odds.

Originally posted by la55i

Originally posted by Fanko
Generally preflop you should avoid calling vs BTN with 22 as most people open extremely wide from that position and you will rarely get paid when u hit while u will often be forced to surrender postflop OOP.

Hmm.. First Q8s from CO and now this I would really like to know what kind of ranges are you playing and why you can't make money with those hands.
Imo openin 22 from BB is very standard. Generally BTN steal size is smaller than 4bb so we often have to call only 1 or 2 BBs. That makes it profitable setmine.

This time you don't have to ask me to filter my database because I did it already
22 - +65bb (203 hands)

Even though I think this should be pretty clear, I still checked some ranges from different coaches and Snowie.
Weazel has 22 as a call BBvBTN, so does Robmaf and Snowie. Janda put this hand as a 3bet bluff for some reason but would call 33.

421 hands - 50.2 bb/100 with 22 when i call preflop.

I would say it is a pretty good value.

On a side note, please, let me know how u manage to open from BB

Haaa, sorry I meant calling of course
Your 22 calls are making -50bb/100? Is that calling only from BB or from all positions?

doubt pre's a big deal vs 4bb either way
your samples are meaningless boys especially with hands that rely on setups/high variance

Postflop I'd call flop

And if you want to have a raising range not sure what's happening now, time to bet large on the turn to represent the draws, and if you check it's to check raise as when you check call it's pretty clear you have a made hand and not a draw anymore

As played I would bet the turn instead of checking with big sizing and shove river.

If you check turn, I think the best thing would be to XR.

Isn't it ok to lead flop vs this player?

@ la55i

It is 50.2/100 bb, not a negative

Oh yea right Is it a winrate though? I think HM2 only shows how much money you have made with the hand. For example I had made 65bb in 203 hands -> 32bb/100..

Originally posted by LemOn36
your samples are meaningless boys especially with hands that rely on setups/high variance

Yea I know, but it might give some kind of idea if it is making money or not. Together we have already 624 hands. Those hands have made quite good profit considering that anything above -100bb/100 is already profitable. Also when we add that my other small pocket pairs are showing consistently similar results, I think it is safe to conclude that calling 22 from BB is profitable

Ok, some things to clarify.

SB vs Steal 22 is instafold.
BB vs Steal it is mostly fold, despite u get good odds to call, since the hand plays terribly and you must either overfold or go hyper-aggressive postflop which just doesn't work on the micros.
BB vs tight open range is call because u have good implied odds.
Vs very loose player that folds a lot to 3bet or to cbet flop + turn 3bet pot u can just put it in 3bet range and call it a day. Still not necessary but if u r feeling adventurous u can do it.

It is 50.2/100 bb, not 50.2bb won.

@ Lemon

Not sure how over 600 specific hands are meaningless but whatever u say, coach.

well when you sit down at a table
And play 600 hands online (about 35 minutes at 4 Zoom tables)
How often will what you win be actually representative of your winrate?

And how many of those small pair hands you faced a 4bb button open when you actually did call?

U do realise this are 600 hands that we have 22 and we called preflop with it, right ? Not 600 random hands.