Can i fold the straight vs River donk ?

Why bet so low on the turn?
He showed big interest in his hand by calling your raise on the flop.
The 9 is a scare card but when he's sitting on a set he's not folding to 2/3 pot either.

After that folding the river is no option anymore

Pre opening KJo from UTG is too loose for me.
OTF you could just start betting, when you decide to go for a check raise I think it could be a bit bigger.
Turn sizing could be a bit bigger but doesn't have to be much bigger. Villain has a short stack.
OTR I think you can call.

Pre-flop is indeed marginal, but on the flop I would defiantly bet for value and protection. Now I would check/raise to at least 16bb for value and shove most turns against a short stack like him.

Cheers,
SDK1987

Is KJo a "standard" open from UTG for you?

First of all, I would size a lot bigger on the flop AND on the turn vs. a player like this. It would make the river call much easier.

From a mathematical stand point you need about 30% equity for a call.

The question is, how many worse hands than a flush can be shoved by villain.

I tend to make a tight fold here because I usually see the flush way too often.

Preflop is an open considering there's a weaker player in the BB and also alot of other weak players on the table.

On the flop you make a mistake with your sizing, if they have a draw they get direct odds. Vs this half stack BB you can size it in a way so you can shove turn.

Also i'd just cbet this, they're weaker players, they'll call too much and stab too little with air on this board.

Originally posted by pdfbq
The 9 is a scare card but when he's sitting on a set he's not folding to 2/3 pot either.

After that folding the river is no option anymore

The 9 isn't a scarecard, it changes nothing.
Also from the action folding on the river is easily possible. His line has 0 bluffs and he's only repping the flush so a straight isn't good anymore.

Preflop is an open considering there's a weaker player in the BB and also alot of other weak players on the table.

Yes there are 2 shortstackers but so far what we know about them is that they are quite tight.
I'm not sure if we can justify opening this hand just because there are some weaker players. I think hands like suited gappers would work better because it is easier to play them postflop. KJo has poor playability and can be dominated.

KJo is a garbage. If this hand is profitable for UTG open, then KJs will make at least 150/100, but this is not the case. Also this is an offsuit hand, 12 combos, your range will becomes weak.
On this flop, your bet must be big. Check-raise is so bad imo. A lot of combos are connected. The pocket pairs will fold anyway.
As played, you can't fold.
This conversation is so funny to me. Ok, let's be results oriented. He have J8s, not only Jd8d. Think about this. He can't have let's say 5 weaker combos. No, this is impossible.
And remember, he don't have the nuts. And you have KdQd. Maybe even Kd9d, Qd9d, if you like this KJo so much. Think about this. Carefully. And you will understand. And then look at your pot odds.

Originally posted by la55i

Preflop is an open considering there's a weaker player in the BB and also alot of other weak players on the table.

Yes there are 2 shortstackers but so far what we know about them is that they are quite tight.
I'm not sure if we can justify opening this hand just because there are some weaker players. I think hands like suited gappers would work better because it is easier to play them postflop. KJo has poor playability and can be dominated.

The smaller our effective stack gets, the more value highcards get and connectors and middling suited cards will get less value.
Also Suited connectors will have LESS playability since there is less manoeuvrability.

Plus there are alot of loosepassive fish at this table that will call with alot of lower holdings and thus are dominated by our hand. With all these passive fish this hand is easy to play, just bet with toppair and fold otherwise if it's multiway.

Originally posted by insomnia666
KJo is a garbage. If this hand is profitable for UTG open, then KJs will make at least 150/100, but this is not the case. Also this is an offsuit hand, 12 combos, your range will becomes weak.
On this flop, your bet must be big. Check-raise is so bad imo. A lot of combos are connected. The pocket pairs will fold anyway.
As played, you can't fold.
This conversation is so funny to me. Ok, let's be results oriented. He have J8s, not only Jd8d. Think about this. He can't have let's say 5 weaker combos. No, this is impossible.
And remember, he don't have the nuts. And you have KdQd. Maybe even Kd9d, Qd9d, if you like this KJo so much. Think about this. Carefully. And you will understand. And then look at your pot odds.

That your range becomes a fraction weaker doesn't matter. Our range still dominates ALOT of the weaker holdings they will call us with, it's not like these fish will exploit us.

No idea what you mean with those last sentences.

No one can guarantee that only the shortstackers call. Here we did end up in the pot with BTN too and if he calls with a reasonable range he will dominate us.
We also did end up playing multiway and there I would say those suited connectors are better than KJo.
And our sample size is quite small to call anyone loose passive fish yet

It is not a terrible open. For example Snowie would recommend to open with this hand from UTG. But it is not in my standard opening range because it really is quite crap.
We can open this, but I think trying to justify opening it because 2/5 players left behind are short and other 2/5 look loose passive based on 16 hands.

KJo isn't in my standard opening range either but in this spot it's easily justifiable.
Having a 16h sample and seeing someone play 43/6 is enough for me to say he's a fish. it COULD be wrong, but the chances of him being a fish instead of a reg is 10 to 1 with those stats.

The only regs i see here are MP and possibly SB.
MP Will in general fold alot vs UTG here so don't really care about him
and SB will have to play OOP vs us and vs a 3bet of him this is a clear fold.

Still, multiway and fish in the pot i'd happily pick highcards over suited connectors. As it's alot easier to play when you hit toppairs and can valuebet. Whereas with SC you have to barrel him off a hand and have no clue how wide he will call you down postflop.

Actually I wasn't talking to you
But I will tell you some things.

That your range becomes a fraction weaker doesn't matter

Does matter. We are talking about the UTG, very narrow range.

it's not like these fish will exploit us

Pokerstars, NL10, 6 max Zoom. There is a lot of regs, playing on 4 tables. Very weak, yes, but they will know how to exploit this wide range. The average 3bet from the "fishes" will be at least 5% . Good luck with the defend. You cant call, the 4bet doesn't matter, cuz we always will have hands from our folding range . And now you losing more with the others combos from your folding range.

Our range still dominates ALOT of the weaker holdings they will call us with

This is very very optimistic. If this is the truth, you can play bet-bet-bet with TP. Against unknown. Now find some good sample from this limit, make a range with an average call vs UTG and see how much equity you will have on any street with this line. The average fold equity is 50-30-50. Do the math by your self. I already know that.

No idea what you mean with those last sentences.

You understand. But you are such an arrogant person and you don't care about the others opinions. I just want to be clear for this guy. I will not talk about the combos and the pot odds in this spot, because if one of my friends see this, he will laugh so hard.

Having a 16h sample and seeing someone play 43/6 is enough for me to say he's a fish. it COULD be wrong, but the chances of him being a fish instead of a reg is 10 to 1 with those stats.

This words definitely deserves sarcastic commentary. But I don't care about this "conversation" any more.

I'm just going to reply to this post in a big quote work.

Originally posted by insomnia666
Actually I am not talking to you.
But I will tell you some things.

That your range becomes a fraction weaker doesn't matter

Does matter. We are talking about the UTG, very narrow range.

KJo is still in alot of regulars STANDARD opening range, so that we open it sometimes doesn't make our range all that wide. It's not like our RFI is going from 12%
to a whopping 20%, no one will notice lol.

it's not like these fish will exploit us

Pokerstars, NL10, 6 max Zoom. There is a lot of regs, playing on 4 tables. Very weak, yes, but they will know how to exploit this wide range. The average 3bet from the "fishes" will be at least 5% . Good luck with the defend. You cant call, the 4bet doesn't matter, cuz we always will have hands from our folding range . And now you losing more with the others combos from your folding range.

Same as the thing i said above, you're not going to be exploited, it's NL10. If the average is 5%, then 95% of the time you'll still have iniative.

Our range still dominates ALOT of the weaker holdings they will call us with

This is very very optimistic. If this is the truth, you can play bet-bet-bet with TP. Against unknown. Now find some good sample from this limit, make a range with an average call vs UTG and see how much equity you will have on any street with this line. The average fold equity is 50-30-50. Do the math by your self. I already know that.

Never said this was a good gameplan vs an unknown. As this isn't in my standard openrange.

No idea what you mean with those last sentences.

You understand. But you are such an arrogant person and you don't care about the others opinions. I just want to be clear for this guy. I will not talk about the combos and the pot odds in this spot, because if one of my friends see this, he will laugh so hard.

And lol at that last part. I'm here to help the micro players on a voluntary basis. I play up to NL200 and am planning to move up soon to NL400. So actually posting here is just a 'waste of time' for me as I don't gain anything for it myself but i like helping other people. Also you might want to reconsider your thoughts about me if you go to my blog's first post and see the small NL10z i posted there. I know exactly how they play there and there's no reason for perfect balance.

I see. I am so sorry. I didn't know who you are. Well, many thanks for your opinion! So valuable to me. Thank you also for your sarcastic commentary.
I used to play with static range from UTG . Zoom 6 max. Like all other "micro" regs. But now I will look carefully who is behind me. So much value. The hands per hour doesn't matter any more.

Originally posted by Varune

Originally posted by pdfbq
The 9 is a scare card but when he's sitting on a set he's not folding to 2/3 pot either.

After that folding the river is no option anymore

The 9 isn't a scarecard, it changes nothing.
Also from the action folding on the river is easily possible. His line has 0 bluffs and he's only repping the flush so a straight
isn't good anymore.

Yup sorry, I misread the board. I saw more strait possibilities than the J8 so my bad. But I meant a scare card for villain so a bigger chance of him folding when betting the turn big, dunno if that was clear.

Question Varune: Would you fold your straight here when Hero would have bet 2/3 pot 24 BB at the turn?
When Villain calls there would be a pot of ~84BB and 30BB to call on the river. So would you still fold?

Originally posted by pdfbq

Originally posted by Varune

Originally posted by pdfbq
The 9 is a scare card but when he's sitting on a set he's not folding to 2/3 pot either.

After that folding the river is no option anymore

The 9 isn't a scarecard, it changes nothing.
Also from the action folding on the river is easily possible. His line has 0 bluffs and he's only repping the flush so a straight
isn't good anymore.

Yup sorry, I misread the board. I saw more strait possibilities than the J8 so my bad. But I meant a scare card for villain so a bigger chance of him folding when betting the turn big, dunno if that was clear.

Question Varune: Would you fold your straight here when Hero would have bet 2/3 pot 24 BB at the turn?
When Villain calls there would be a pot of ~84BB and 30BB to call on the river. So would you still fold?

no problem.

Well yea the problem is, the hand isn't planned out correctly from the flop. If we size up our flop raise we wouldn't be in these awkward river spots.

When we size the turn 2/3 the river still has akward stacksizes behind. I'd be more likely to call then since we only have to be good ~20% of the time. But i'd still not be happily clicking that call button. But since it's a fish you could expect some random spazzes here and call.

If we size our raise OTF to ~20bb we can shove turn vs the BB-player.

Surprise surprise
When there's arguments it's close and doesn't almost matter boys. KJo is one of the borderline hands around 0EV you can play around with. I personally would fold when you have 3 reg or loose people IP on you with the high rake. Although the nit in the BB and weaker guy in SB does make it enticing, if you want to push every edge you can consider KJo with good table conditions even here.

Postflop always bet the flop, question is sizing really and I can see arguments from 25% bet to close to pot
The reason is that when both just flat it discounts their hands like AA QQ TT AQ AK ATs that will always bet the flop, so this will get checked back too much

As played classic fallacy - I have the nuts, I'm afraid they will go away so you bet tiny, but it's really time to fistpump that they DID bet so they have something they like, you want to get value and not let them draw cheaply, raise it large and bomb the turn like a champion