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Nutflushdraw in 3bet Pot - did I play it wrong?

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clovenhoofsdoom
Joined: 04.03.2016

HEy guys,

I recently had 2 of these exact same spots, where I strongly suggested Villain to be on a reasonable good made hand like QQ+ because he was willing to call my 3bet out of position and double barrel a low to mid, kind of dry board with only few draws. In both spots I decided to raise turn and stack off with the nutflushdraw and 1 or 2 potential overcards: because a possible flush river could stop action, and first I thought, it is as well to balance my valueraise turn range. But the longer I thought about it, I thought, hmm at the turn I will never be in front of Villain here if he calls - which would be no surprise after betting 2 times in a 3bet pot, and thus a play after odds and outs might result in higher EV. Can you argue for one or the other line? That would make me happy :)

For me it is like this: little to no Foldequity here, and in the potequity I am behind. So long term I loose more money raising the nutflushdraw here instead of calling, right?

For the record: I can not deliver stats for Villain here, I had a history of 5 hands only.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (5 handed) - Converted at http://handhistoryconverter.com

Button ($6.89)
SB ($5.09)
BB ($3.97)
UTG ($5.03)
Hero (MP) ($5.12)

Preflop: Hero is MP with J, A
UTG raises to $0.15, Hero raises to $0.45, 3 folds, UTG calls $0.30

Flop: ($0.97) 10, 3, 10 (2 players)
UTG bets $0.50, Hero calls $0.50

Turn: ($1.97) 5 (2 players)
UTG bets $1.05, Hero raises to $3.35, UTG raises to $4.08 (All-In), Hero calls $0.73

River: ($10.13) 5 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $10.13 | Rake: $0.42

Results:

Spoiler

UTG had K, K (two pair, Kings and tens).
Hero had J, A (two pair, tens and fives).
Outcome: UTG won $9.71


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10 replies
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SDK1987
Joined: 12.11.2008

This is a weird played hand. 3betting seems fine pre-flop, but not sure why you are raising the turn with only flush outs and in a situation you committing yourself as well. If I would raise I would shove, but in this case I would just call and fold if I miss.

Another option would be to raise the flop, but than you end up in a nasty spot if he’s 3betting. He can easy have a T or even 33 here.

Cheers,
SDK1987


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nitrol
Joined: 24.07.2010

You can call preflop. You can 3b either, if the players after you are active squeezers.
The turn raise is too much. Why do you raise on a blank card? If you are about to raise why didn't you raise on flop? And why do you raise with FD on a paired board?
You may not win even if you hit your flush...


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LacsapR
Joined: 14.07.2011

I like the 3bet pre but the raise ott is absolutely senseless. If you got the odds just call and see if you hit. I'd not even be sure if an A otr would give you the best hand as he might also have a set or trips tens.


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clovenhoofsdoom
Joined: 04.03.2016

OK, that's clear to me now. I'm still a fish I guess. thanks for your answers :f_thumbsup:


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nitrol
Joined: 24.07.2010

You should not bother that you make mistakes. You will make them even on higher levels. The good thing is that you are willing to work on them and improve.


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LacsapR
Joined: 14.07.2011

Yes we all make Mas mistakes, it's about identifying them and don't do them again 😊


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nitrol
Joined: 24.07.2010

Learning from mistakes - this is the way to improve in poker.


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clovenhoofsdoom
Joined: 04.03.2016

Yes! No need to be ashamed, I assume :f_thumbsup:


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nitrol
Joined: 24.07.2010

There is nothing to be ashamed of. Even great players make mistakes. The fact that you have the courage to post a hand is a step in the right direction.
Next step is to carefully read what others are saying and make a note on this situation. Whenever it occurs during play - you got the right mechanism of play!

There are tons of players that post one and the same hand for tens of times and do not get the note on the play.


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clovenhoofsdoom
Joined: 04.03.2016

Yeah, I actually did not write it down on paper (although I have done so, like dozens of handwritten DIN A4 papers about poker theory :)) but I guess, I will not make that mistake again - at least in near future! I guess, this idea of raise turn came from a video of one of the coaches, where he said, he sometimes raises his lower flushdraws OTT - BUT, I am not sure if he does it when the backdoor hits (I don't think so), and I'm pretty sure it is kind of bad thing to repeat lines where you do not understand the reasons behind it oO this is a note to myself think more about lines and reasons for your action. Thank's all for participating here :)


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