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is it better to shove flop?

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diabloykiss
Joined: 19.04.2018

I 4bet bluff here with AQs, hit a decent flop and my plan was to check/call flop or turn, thinking he would only fire once. But thinking deeper after the hand, I think the best play is to just shove flop. not even check/raise it.

we block hands like AK AA QQ, AK is more possible but he is folding to a shove imo. So we get calls from TT JJ KK ofc AA QQ but we make him fold AK against which we're behind and still got good equity against all the hands with our FD

PokerStars - $0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (UTG): 142.5 BB
MP: 161 BB (VPIP: 40.15, PFR: 25.00, 3Bet Preflop: 9.30, Hands: 136)
CO: 109 BB (VPIP: 18.06, PFR: 11.11, 3Bet Preflop: 3.23, Hands: 148)
BTN: 128.5 BB (VPIP: 20.75, PFR: 13.21, 3Bet Preflop: 2.70, Hands: 107)
SB: 109.5 BB (VPIP: 24.79, PFR: 23.93, 3Bet Preflop: 9.09, Hands: 123)
BB: 133 BB (VPIP: 42.86, PFR: 28.57, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 7)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Q♠ A♠

Hero raises to 3 BB, MP raises to 10.5 BB, fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 26 BB, MP calls 15.5 BB

Flop: (53.5 BB, 2 players) 5♥ T♠ 3♠
Hero checks, MP bets 26 BB, Hero calls 26 BB

Turn: (105.5 BB, 2 players) 9♣
Hero checks, MP bets 51 BB, Hero calls 51 BB

River: (207.5 BB, 2 players) T♦
Hero checks, MP bets 58 BB and is all-in, fold

Spoiler

MP wins 200 BB

I think the line I took was just wrong. It was probably better to just flat it as we were deep but was trying different things.


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9 replies
zetozinho
Joined: 18.06.2017

I think the 4bet size was too small. OOP I'd make it 40BB or so.
I think the primary mistake was the turn. You were not getting the correct price to pursuit the spade and you were OOP. By calling here you are comitting yourself to a pot where you have ace high against a villain IP that called your 4bet and double barrelled so far. You're behind here almost 100% of the times. Shove or fold here.

By going all-in OTF you increase your equity. With 9 outs for the flush and the 3 aces (not even considering a Q with give you the best hand) it's a coinflip. I think it's best than call and wait for the turn.
You'll get called by QQ, TT, maybe JJ. AK is folding for sure.


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MyFloXyBabY
Joined: 15.02.2010

The 4bet size is ok but the spot isn't. Just flat your AQs preflop please (if else I wonder how weak your flatting range looks like) and 4bet bluff MP with something like A5s, KQo, or AJo instead. Moreover if you're deep.

As played it's weird indeed, you're nearly all-in when you call turn so I suppose it'd have been better to shove flop even if you'll often lose.


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MLima1984
Joined: 19.05.2015

I wouldnt 4bet pre in this situation. OTF i think i would just call also, because i dont like to risk all my stack on a coin flip (thats if u count the A). OTT is a fold for sure


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CucumbaMan
Joined: 13.10.2017

Agree with the others. OTT it is a fold for me as well, flop call looks fine.


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Zire99
Joined: 23.09.2016

Originally posted by MLima1984
I wouldnt 4bet pre in this situation. OTF i think i would just call also, because i dont like to risk all my stack on a coin flip (thats if u count the A). OTT is a fold for sure

I wouldn't 4 bet either. But I would risk my stack for a coin flip + fold equity any day.


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Sunrise1912
Joined: 24.11.2009

Ok, why is nobody cbetting this flop ? Clear cbet flop with the intention to shove turn. This way you put huge pressure on his JJ/AK type of hands. I even think he would fold AK. You still have a decent equity against every possible holding of the villian.

Basically with AK/AQ spades + AA/KK i am cbetting the flop and shoving the turn.


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Endurx
Joined: 13.11.2008

if you 4bet AQs there shouldnt be any hands that your calling, you turned in bluff best possible hand that you could call to his 3bet, if you get such a flop why didnt u check rise the flop, calling is the worst possible way to do holding FD on Ace in 3bet pot OOP


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semiramiRNMD
Joined: 25.10.2009

I don't like it. AQs is obviously not a good candidate for a 4-bet bluff, and I don't think you should have a 4-bet bluff range UTG vs MP on 2NL, unless if you know the player very well. On the flop I'll C-bet any day, taking the passive line in this situation is a big mistake IMO.


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la55i
Joined: 27.01.2013

Originally posted by Sunrise1912
Ok, why is nobody cbetting this flop ? Clear cbet flop with the intention to shove turn. This way you put huge pressure on his JJ/AK type of hands. I even think he would fold AK. You still have a decent equity against every possible holding of the villian.

Basically with AK/AQ spades + AA/KK i am cbetting the flop and shoving the turn.

I would not 4bet pre but as played I think this line would be just fine. I like the reasoning. Also, if we check with Snowie or with a GTO solver this is probably what those would suggest.


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