[ZOOM] - Can you see the mistake I made in this hand?

You mean playing a weak suited Q OOP multi-way?
(maybe this is normal these days, but for me this is a fold pre)

I can't comment on the flop and turn play, other than to say that being in a fair-sized pot with bottom two pair pot control is probably the best line, so just flatting the flop might have been better.

As played, bet/fold the river would have been good to get value from AK, AJ, AT and a lot of other likely hands that you beat.

For 5c more it's really tough to fold when you can win at least 30c.
Only mistake I could think of is that I would Cbet the turn for thin value and protection and fold if villain would raise. Now you playing a guessing game out of position. River would be a check as well with in mind you aren't the aggressor anymore and you have a bluff catcher, but tough to think villain would bet with to many weaker hands.

Cheers,
SDK1987

Yes, playing this hand from the BB is absolutely standard, even multiway, as you need to put 5cts in 30cts, meaning you need like 16% equity. Vs a standard opening range and a very tight SB calling range (I took my SB vs Btn open 3-betting range minus JJ+ AK, we still have 24% equity.

For me, the mistake was raising a board that heavily favor the PFR. On a board like this, we have a range disadvantage and a nut disadvantage, so we should not raise a c-bet. I knew that and I thought "it's NL5, who cares" and when he 3-bet me, I thought "s***, here we go, now I'm probably beat, but realistically I can't fold this hand, it's the top of my range with A3 and 33, and I block QQ."

I should just have called and re-evaluate OTT.

If anybody thinks we should have a raising range here, please let me know, I really do need to work on my raising ranges so any opinion helps

When he 3bet is sick without info, this is a 3way pot.. However I think that your action can be ok flop.

If you have the power to fold turn (he look like reg, and in 3way pot your action in very strong) you could snap livel up

River check fold, you are dead: his value crush your hand, and thus river improve his bluffs.

As played on a river blank do you lose your stack?

This is an hard fold at nl 5 without info.

However i like your check raise flop, Ax doesn't pay you, but KT, KJ, JT, FD naked and Ax +fd sure.

AJ doesn't barrel 3 street here for check call flop

Concerning pre-flop:
The villains are more or less unknown. According to W34z3l this is a fold, as it is not in his default overcalling/squeeze ranges.
However, it is possible to explotatively defend wider from the BB and vs 2x basically call with any suited combo, if you can assume to have a significant post-flop edge. Don't know if this applies here?

@monteCarlol I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. On one hand "here are ranges that don't have Q3s in them in that spot", on the other hand "however here are 3 reasons why you should call anyway".

That being said, if you are refering to the ranges in the video "w34z3l Ranges Overview", these are ranges for 2.5BB btn open, and therefore don't apply here.

VS a 2.5BB open and a call from SB, you need to put 1.5BB in 7.5BB, meaning you need 20% equity. Since you're going to under-realize equity OOP vs BTN, and also because you are 3-way, Q3s makes a fine fold in a vaccum. I don't think we can apply any exploitative play here since we have basically no info on Villain. We might have exploits vs population, but I do not have such exploits in specifically "how wide should you call BB vs BTN on a 2BB BTN open and SB call to be exploitative vs both players". In terms of postflop edge, well, any result oriented observer will say I have the opposite of an edge because I played this hand poorly, but I don't think it's the case. I don't think I have a definitive edge vs population in NL5 zoom, but I don't think I'm worse than population either. So in doubt, I prefer to base myself on what I know, like my pot odds and hand equity vs percieved ranges.

The true action at hand gave me a minimum of 16% equity needed. Even with the disadvantages above, I don't think you should fold Q3s and its under-estimated 24% equity vs both ranges. You could argue I could exploitatively fold it because it's going to be a close to 0EV play pre, but my counterargument is that I'm not here to only take the super safe 100+EV plays, I'm here to get better, move up and crush. I'm perfectly happy to take passive or agressive actions in marginal spots so it gives me experience and content to review, analyse and study off table. And if I allow myself to push the argument even further, none of the above even considers any of the villains in this hand may be terrible players postflop, which will often be the case in micros.

If you can find BBvsBTN/SB overcalling ranges where the BTN open is 2BB that take rake in consideration, feel free to send me a link, that would be fantastic.

Thank you

Originally posted by pisiattu
When he 3bet is sick without info, this is a 3way pot.. However I think that your action can be ok flop.

If you have the power to fold turn (he look like reg, and in 3way pot your action in very strong) you could snap livel up

River check fold, you are dead: his value crush your hand, and thus river improve his bluffs.

As played on a river blank do you lose your stack?

This is an hard fold at nl 5 without info.

However i like your check raise flop, Ax doesn't pay you, but KT, KJ, JT, FD naked and Ax +fd sure.

AJ doesn't barrel 3 street here for check call flop

As played I fold river, which makes it even dumber to call turn with this particular hand. With hindsight, vs his range, the only "good" card for me river is a 3. Nothing else. Maybe a spade makes him check back OTR but I still lose anyway.

You say it's a 3-way pot, but SB folded before any raise even occured OTF, do you still consider our raise and re-raise flop to display huge strength due to the hand being multiway regardless?

I don't like my raise flop at all, because I value town myself vs all of villain's best and nutted hands, which I never have in my range, while also make him fold tons of hand I beat such as weak Ax, high card FDs, and well, all of his missed hands that C-Bet anyway because he should range C-Bet here. Again, I'm highly unsure a raise is ever profitable here, and if yes, with what range, and why?

He could smooth call AA QQ AQ A3 33 and let me impale myself, or simply re-raise me like he did and hope i'm going to call anyway, which I shouldn't (at least OTT) but did anyway. In a sense, his play was exploitatively superb vs exactly me ♦

As you mentioned, this is dry board texture, which will greatly benefit the OR as he is uncapped, he has all the nutted Hands in his range, therefore i think x/c is the right play here all the way. We do have very stable SDV meaning our hand willin most cases not really lose SDV on most runouts. its a spot were i like to exploid over played Top Pairs and overly bluffy Vs that just fire three streets with air. Obv if the flush gets there one can think about folding to a big overbet on the micros. i'd still call him down most of the time.
By raising you are not getting called by much worse. Like only Hand i can think of that might call is Ak, therefore youll be way behind when called most of the time.
Let him stack off with weaker Ax and FDs..

If you can find BBvsBTN/SB overcalling ranges where the BTN open is 2BB that take rake in consideration, feel free to send me a link, that would be fantastic.

Thank you

Originally posted by Nikb90
As you mentioned, this is dry board texture, which will greatly benefit the OR as he is uncapped, he has all the nutted Hands in his range, therefore i think x/c is the right play here all the way. We do have very stable SDV meaning our hand willin most cases not really lose SDV on most runouts. its a spot were i like to exploid over played Top Pairs and overly bluffy Vs that just fire three streets with air. Obv if the flush gets there one can think about folding to a big overbet on the micros. i'd still call him down most of the time.
By raising you are not getting called by much worse. Like only Hand i can think of that might call is Ak, therefore youll be way behind when called most of the time.
Let him stack off with weaker Ax and FDs..

Mah_Man.gif

As played, do you fold vs flop 3-bet, turn, or neither?

So as played on the flop facing the 3bet, we are almost 200bbs effective, and we got to ask ourselfs whether or not we want goand play for stacks. So giving that V will show up with the nuts AA/QQ/AQ/A3 some of the time and we literally never, i think folding flop is the best play, as it seems very unlikely that V will shut down and even if we are good here, we will get blown off the hand a lot on future streets. I would have to have a very solid read that V is likely to overplay any Ax and/or is capable of 3bet bluffing with some Backdoors FDs and even some gutshots..
On the Turn, in game logic would make me call because i would feel really stupid to call the 3bet and then folding to the incoming BDFD ..also his sizing is not too big so if we thought he were capable to bluff 3bet with some FDs and backdoors we will have to call him.

Originally posted by Anthbois932
If you can find BBvsBTN/SB overcalling ranges where the BTN open is 2BB that take rake in consideration, feel free to send me a link, that would be fantastic.
Thank you

I was just referring to the discussion whether to defend pre-flop or not. According to W34z3l this is a call if you think you have a significant post-flop edge, which he explains in this video: https://www.pokerstrategy.com/video/47357/.

Here is the video with the overcalling ranges: https://www.pokerstrategy.com/video/47365/

AFAIK this is all applicable to high rake micro-stakes.

Originally posted by AgapieGheorghe

If you can find BBvsBTN/SB overcalling ranges where the BTN open is 2BB that take rake in consideration, feel free to send me a link, that would be fantastic.

Thank you

Thanks a lot.
Where are these ranges coming from?

Thank you

Originally posted by monteCarlol

Originally posted by Anthbois932
If you can find BBvsBTN/SB overcalling ranges where the BTN open is 2BB that take rake in consideration, feel free to send me a link, that would be fantastic.
Thank you

I was just referring to the discussion whether to defend pre-flop or not. According to W34z3l this is a call if you think you have a significant post-flop edge, which he explains in this video: https://www.pokerstrategy.com/video/47357/.

Here is the video with the overcalling ranges: https://www.pokerstrategy.com/video/47365/

AFAIK this is all applicable to high rake micro-stakes.

Thanks a lot, this is much appreciated. I don't have gold status so I cannot look at the video, so thank you again for posting a screenshot.
The only small caveat I would have, looking at these ranges, is that it doesn't take precise consideration of the preflop opener, nor does it take into consideration the number of callers. In the range highlighted in your screenshot, we can see it's a range vs "Late Position" opener and self-evidently 1 caller. What this means to me is we will have the same range vs all of the following situations:

- CO opens, BTN calls, SB folds
- CO opens, BTN folds, SB calls
- BTN opens, SB calls

For this reason, I will assume the range shown is tighter than it should be vs specifically BTN opens, SB call, because I assume when you merge ranges into one, you'd either take the tightest one, or an average of all merged ranges.

What he did there is a great simplification job, very helpful, I'll compare this to my own ranges to see if there's anything I can modify to get my strategy just a bit better.

Thanks you!

Originally posted by Anthbois932
Thanks a lot, this is much appreciated. I don't have gold status so I cannot look at the video, so thank you again for posting a screenshot.
The only small caveat I would have, looking at these ranges, is that it doesn't take precise consideration of the preflop opener, nor does it take into consideration the number of callers. In the range highlighted in your screenshot, we can see it's a range vs "Late Position" opener and self-evidently 1 caller. What this means to me is we will have the same range vs all of the following situations:

- CO opens, BTN calls, SB folds
- CO opens, BTN folds, SB calls
- BTN opens, SB calls

For this reason, I will assume the range shown is tighter than it should be vs specifically BTN opens, SB call, because I assume when you merge ranges into one, you'd either take the tightest one, or an average of all merged ranges.

What he did there is a great simplification job, very helpful, I'll compare this to my own ranges to see if there's anything I can modify to get my strategy just a bit better.

He acknowledges this in general in the videos. He says that in most scenarios that are not broken down any further, the difference is not significant.
But probably, according to pure theory, there is a slight difference. The Question is, if this makes much of a difference in practice?

Would I play Q3s on BB for .5BB more? Yes, I would. I think I would try to put the money in on flop because the board is wet and these weak two pairs type of hands are vulnerable to all kinds of just runner runner whatever and then the strength of its holdings gets compromised or counterfeited. So I try to play if fast.

The only big difference it makes is if there is a CO open, BTN call and SB call. This increases the number of players, and further divides all of our hands' equity, which in return should translate in a significant change in range construction.

This set aside, for the other scenarios, probably not enough of a difference that it makes any significant change in overall EV, which is a strong argument for simplification.

Originally posted by Dr1fter808
Would I play Q3s on BB for .5BB more? Yes, I would. I think I would try to put the money in on flop because the board is wet and these weak two pairs type of hands are vulnerable to all kinds of just runner runner whatever and then the strength of its holdings gets compromised or counterfeited. So I try to play if fast.

If you 4-bet all in (or 4-bet, then call all in) this flop, you will exclusively be against hands that have you crushed. A wet flop/board alone does not justifies playing fast. To be perfectly honest, I would not even qualify this board of "wet". Certainly not "dry", but we are far from a KJTss, or 8TQhh board. What does justify playing fast is the probability that you will get called by a good chunk of hands you beat, or that you have good equity against. Q3s is not one of these hands, as it is crushed by any other 2p and all sets. It flips vs Ax with a FD, but vs the range I just described before, our hand equity drops to 20% (30% if you include Ax +FD). Putting all your money in on this flop is a huge mistake. Hence why you don't raise a board that heavily favors the preflop opener, because they have tons of hands that can continue and beat you, hence why my flop play was a big mistake.

I would post screenshots of FlopZilla Pro showing proof of the above, but I cannot with my current status, sorry.