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BunBun00
Joined: 13.09.2023

UTG opens, BU and SB call, BB calls with 8♠:8♦:Q♦:K♥:
Q♠:4♣:9♠:3♠:T♣:

Flop, SB x, BB bets 75%, SB calls,
Turn checks through
River SB checks, BB bets 50%
Is it ,lets say creative, to bet the flop? The 8♠: is nice. I think turn and river are standard but I could be wrong.

Hand2
Bu opens, BB 3bets A♠:J♠:Q♣:9♣:
7♠:Q♠:4♥:5♥:2♣:
Checked all the way down.
OTF my ranges probably does quite a bit of checking, with this hand I could go either way between 50% bet or check. OTT I probably check range.

What do you think?


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Mascherano95
Joined: 09.10.2010

first hand, preflop fold, flop bet should be okayish with nice future blockers (FE reducing some sucker combos, FE against some busters on blank runouts, nice top-pair works as a decent blocker) but against so many players check-fold is fine
yeah turn river standard. turn you could bluff a second barrel with the 8♠: villain will folds lots of hands here in a straightforward dynamics (anything weaker than set) but it's not mandatory

second hand is usually a cbet here. solver is not check-raising generally on such boards but it could work as an exploit strategy where you'd bluff check-raise and fold out lots of made hands gto-wise villain is supposed to def light but many don't, on the other hand bluff check-shoving against a value-heavy range is not to everybody's taste. yes we have some checks here too but afaik not with the nf. the avg. 3bp spr of 3-4 is too small for monotone texture. once flop went check check you have to start betting ott otherwise it's too fancy. he is supposed to defense here and you miss value. your line shows, that you intuitively probably know you are not bluffing enough so you picked that line to balance. I assume your overall strategy is prolly weak here. you gotta bet aggressively in general as the pfa in a 3bp.


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BunBun00
Joined: 13.09.2023

Originally posted by Mascherano95

. yes we have some checks here too but afaik not with the nf. the avg. 3bp spr of 3-4 is too small for monotone texture. once flop went check check you have to start betting ott otherwise it's too fancy. he is supposed to defense here and you miss value.

Omg I'm an idiot. Excuse me the flop was 7♠:Q♠:4♥: not 4♠:.


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Mascherano95
Joined: 09.10.2010

Originally posted by BunBun00

Originally posted by Mascherano95

. yes we have some checks here too but afaik not with the nf. the avg. 3bp spr of 3-4 is too small for monotone texture. once flop went check check you have to start betting ott otherwise it's too fancy. he is supposed to defense here and you miss value.

Omg I'm an idiot. Excuse me the flop was 7♠:Q♠:4♥: not 4♠:.

ok. well I don't think a pairing flush does not change much for the turn play, I think pot-pot value lines makes most sense. nutflush still within our stack-off range on paired boards in 3bp's so I'd still just 2barrel after villain checking back flop. with top-pair top-kick idk it's somewhere borderline between check-shove and bet-shove (we rather bet-shove the very best hands). If we had a add. wheel stuff like gutshot or sth. I'd say better bet it, this way check-shove is fine imo. we can also check-call to balance since our hand has great visbility and is pretty invulnerable


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ghaleon
Joined: 17.10.2007

First hand indeed preflop fold and too loose for my taste in 4way flop. If we had e.g. KQTT with one spade it would be ok as then we have more valuable blockers and some nutty equity. But in general I would be very careful with low equity blocker hands in 4+way pots. I like turn/river play as it also mirrors strength of our blocker in a way. With K♠: I would probably fire turn though.

In second hand I would say looking for x-r is quite reasonable approach. 4 and 7 not great for our 3bet range. Any straightening turn is bad as we have no interaction on those. That said hand does still play ok as cbet so I doubt either check or bet has that big of EV difference. As played on turn/river we have easy check.


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BunBun00
Joined: 13.09.2023

One reason I did not c-bet was that I'm unsure about what sizing to use here. Solver, I think, uses all sizing here on these two tone non-paired boards, big and small sizing's, and so I'm a bit unsure which hand class uses which sizing.


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Mascherano95
Joined: 09.10.2010

Originally posted by BunBun00
One reason I did not c-bet was that I'm unsure about what sizing to use here. Solver, I think, uses all sizing here on these two tone non-paired boards, big and small sizing's, and so I'm a bit unsure which hand class uses which sizing.

Solver does half-pot and pot. The general strategy how I perceive it: We pot a merged range of our vulnerable made hands (set up shove on blank turn cards) and smooth mediocre combo-draws (board coverage on shifting turn cards) to play a 2street game and half-pot a polarized range of strong hands (happy to induce a shove or strong enough for 3 streets) and blocker/backdoors bluffs (easy fold vs shove, potential equity improvement on turn cards to 2barrel semi bluff ).

Hands too weak for bet-shove but too strong for check-fold usually want to check-call or check-raise. For check-raise we like hands with faulty Visbility/Playability but strong equity (non-nutted combo-draws, multiple weak to mediocre made hand components, etc..). For check-call we like hands that have potential for decent SDV that can bluff-catch multiple streets, nutted components for good visibility (avoid reverse implieds) and also require decent equity (hands too strong to check-fold). So for a check-continue we basically need good but not very good equity. Depending on our playability we check-shove or check-call.

With Top-pair topkicker + nfd at SPR4 we have decent value right now too strong to check-fold obv. but not super strong. (but it's pretty borderline to super strong cause texture is light, villain will not be connecting very well with BMLs/BLLs boards either considering we have hit the high B card). Considering the arguments I have made above you might find the correct play by yourself.

Spoiler

Good but not very good Equity? Yes -> favors cbet-call (not super happy with that but have to call with odds, it's fine GTO-wise but probably not max-EV against value-heavy abc-regs), check-shove or check-call
Good Visibility? Yes -> favors cbet or check-call

So if you need to balance your turn play against a bet-folding villain you might want to check-call, other wise just try to gii otf I'd say, check-shove vs tag for the FE vs stabbing (eventually merged/imba) range and multi-barrel to accumulate FE along the way vs loose pre ranges that are dominated but refuse to fold vs small with dead money or chasing dominated draws etc...


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BunBun00
Joined: 13.09.2023

Thanks a bunch for this all this info. It's a lot to take in. The pot sizing, include mediocre combo draws. But the x-shove line also include mediocre combo draws. How do we differentiate them? I'm going to assume the bet-call combo draws are nutty, perhaps Bottom/Middle pair +NGD, or NGD+2bdfd or OESD, while the check-shove hands are more non nutty FDs and OESDs?

Reason why I didn't like pot-pot line, is because the flop is I'm not going to connect with the flop a lot. While villain will connect a bit more with it. Also it's an emotional response, because on a lot of straitening turns I'm going to x-fold vs bets bigger than 50%. And so it feels awful to pot flop and then give up turn with SPR1. But I guess the value of pot-pot on non straitening or pairing turns is bigger than the value lost with pot-fold.

Regarding visibility, so a naked NFD for example has good visibility, we either have all the equity or very little OTT. So I'm guessing it's good candidate to check-call with it rather than check-shove?
From what you said I think pot-pot on non straight or pairing turns is the way to go.

So for good but not very good Equity, we basically have all options, check-call, check-shove, bet-call.
What does the B stand for in BMLs. I'm assuming M and L stand for middle and low respectively. What does imba mean?


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Mascherano95
Joined: 09.10.2010

But the x-shove line also include mediocre combo draws. How do we differentiate them?

Very good and hard to answer question. Hands that can check-raise usually can also bet-bet, they are similar but there some little nuances - usually, but sometimes hard to identify (or pattern makes no sense - quite often^^).

First I want to say you don't have to hit the GTO-frequencies perfectly accurate. You don't even have to have the combos assigned to the correct lines perfectly (!). If you check-shove a hand that should have 2barreled it's barely an EV-loss cause you won't be exploited doing this anyways. Haha. Applying logic helps huge, thinking through the situation. It's a concept introduced by Chambers in his "advanced plo theory" that should be familiar to everybody, you can implement those in your thought process without even having knowledge about solver-strategy, but you gotta formulate those thoughts (and which is harder, weight them up against each other). Is it a nutpeddler? Well maybe just fold. You don't have showdown-value and he checks the river? Well maybe just bluff shove. You have nice blockers , you've seen him value-potting the nuts and now his sizing is weird? Well maybe just test him with an one-and-done bluff-raise. Usually you won't have it right according to GTO anyways. Even high stakes players deviate massively. Anyways. If simplifications are helpful, you can do it, as long as you overall strategys' balance does not fly out the window. So what does this mean?

Let me illustrate this in a scenario where SB is the PFA, 3bets and BU flats ip. The flop is Q♥:7♥:4♠:, very similar situation where the 3bettor is oop at low SPR.

With the pot/halfpot strategy we bet 50% and check 50%, this is not too difficult and we get a feeling for that quickly. It becomes difficult selecting the right amount of hands for a half pot strategy and those for pot, to tune right the frequencies with specific combos where knowing 2card combos is not sufficient as sidevalue often plays a big role. This is lots of work as we'd have to research the specific combos in our GTO-software and add them upp, differentiating all those different side cards, how often they are possible, avoid rendundancies etc. Work aside the tables basically. We kinda have to do that to become better and ideally complement it with exercising solver training that particular spot.

So on that flop we halfpot 41% and pot 11%. 11% is not massive, we might simplify that. Those 11% pot usually are hands easier to identify (less combos, obvious structure) and from which we know now can check-raise aswell. So seeing the check-raise 15% we'd just go ahead and design a strategy where we half-pot >50% betting combos we can evaluate quite accurately combowise and put like ~5% on top to a total of check-raising 20%. We don't lose much value but it's way easier to execute, as we'd have just 1 sizing and also have to worry less about playbility oop. We get a grasp on a roughly solid strategy more quickly and this is important. If villain checks back too much you might check-raise even less and cbet halfpot at a 60% frequency, but you gotta have to bet lots hands and your are not allowed to fold all of your checks unless your cbet freq becomes really high - that's the gist of the story. It's not important to perform a perfectly accurate GTO strategy, we rather like to be balanced roughly, put combos into lines that make sense (at least for us), compare it with what villain is doing and then then try to figure out what are (obvious) exploits.

If you got a feeling for what to do in that spot, you can also transition slowly back to implementing a pot strategy again. Or you can have a hand you really just wanna pot and still pot it deviating from your strategy, also not the end of the world. What you don't want to do is, trying to hit nuts or specific handstrength categories following a fit-fold strategy, chasing odds or spew-bluffing without honest assessment of the situation nor reflection on our strategy (like bluff-barrel on the river but we actually have no idea what villain has check-called on the turn).

On Q♥:7♥:4♠: a :Qx::Qx: top-set is a superstrong hand (monster) so you should know we don't pot it. Solver even checks it more often than betting (60:40) facing a bet check-calling it (80:20 over check-shove). Reason for this is, we block villains value stack-off range (top-2pair, top-pair+fd etc.). Great visibility and playability + SDV speaks for check-call rather than check-raising (when equity is strong enough to continue after we have decided not to bet). So blocking villains value range with a monster is a reason not to bet, but which top-set want to check-raise? This is very clear in solver. We check-shove the naked ones without a single and on top of that we want to check-raise those having a triple-bdfd :spade::spade::spade: (because they block villains bluffs that try to improve their on turncards but could not call a check-shove, villain should not be bluffing randomly but try to sneak in backdoor equity that might add up to justifying an odds-allin).

If we look at :4x::4x: it's the opposite. Here solver cbets at 80% frequency unblocking the defending value candidates (top-pair, etc..). You might think, oh but our hand is vulnerable should not we go pot? Nope, since we check a high frequency on turn shifts, we are not going any places with such a strong hand like bottom set and should defend against a float (for example solver check-calls 99% of :4x::4x: on a 2♥: completing a flush). So planning ahead for various textures is also a big thing. On the river it gets trickier and we'd have to reevaluate the whole hand, assess value on blockers and often it's a gut thing kinda but I knowing those basics should put you ahead against the average abc-regular who often is lost in 3bp-dynamics. He sees the flush turn, Does not give anyone implieds so his frequency drops massively, the check-fold on turn or river becomes the standard play -they just can't call without big flush but truth is, they won't have it often enough. Since they cannot deviate from a play they consider "reasonable/solid" assessing an exploit line up here gives you the edge needed. Now play yourself sth. like ABC against the bad players who just overplay handstrengths and you should be able to crush low stakes quickly.. imagine repeatedly bluff-floating 100% of your flush blockers without SDV, stabbing cheap ott with half-pot, where villain has no solid defense strategy (you could start with a nutflushblocker try it against someone you labelled as tight, I ended up quickly bluffing basically any flushblocker lol and now it's my standard line). Villain sees your solid 25% vpip and gives up one massive pot after another just like on an assembly line finally having flushes ends up shoving giving you an easy decision. It might be even obvious what you are doing but people always have troubles leaving their comfort zones, not just in poker.

That top-/bottom-set example with each arguments in their respective is just an example. When searching for patterns in GTO-solutions which is tiring indeed you will find such though. If not, you can also set up your own rules that make sense for you! You have to be creative. You might have an idea which you apply, later on find out that it is not optimal, great! You'll need some excel sheets and simplifications to organize all of it. You'd need to repeat and memorize it cause you cannot do beside the grind. But we gotta do something and we gotta start somewhere. Being paralyzed confronted with the complexity of this game is a main danger/obstacle when it comes to starting your studies. Asking the question what is the difference between hands of check-shove and bet-bet is exactly such a first step. You gotta follow through though. Then repeat if for other textures. What's our SB 3bet range actually? How ofte do we hit certain handstrengths? What's villain tendency on the button? Etc.. It is a never ending journey....

?( :pcuser: :badteeth: :pcuser: :badteeth: :pcuser: :profit: :milord: :truestory:

What does the B stand for in BMLs. I'm assuming M and L stand for middle and low respectively. What does imba mean?

broadwaycard so :Ax: - :Tx:. Yes and imba means imbalanced so "not balanced well".


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BunBun00
Joined: 13.09.2023

Man I did not study this hard in school :why: Time to read and implement this reply :pcuser:


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Mascherano95
Joined: 09.10.2010

Originally posted by BunBun00
Man I did not study this hard in school :why: Time to read and implement this reply :pcuser:

Buahaha


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Kyyberi
Joined: 09.07.2010

I am a simple man: first hand is bad in multiway pot, fold preflop. Second hand, we flop good and it's 3bet pot (where people are calling way more than in single raised pots). I would just pot it and be happy when opponent stacks off with weaker flush draw and 10% equity. In my mind it's quite simple spot in terms of old school PLO: if opponent doesn't have anything, he wouldn't bluff flop often. If he has anything, he would call us and we have a value hand.


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