Khiiniau struggling with micro PLO

Originally posted by Kyyberi
Overall 73%, but from SB it seems to be most of the range.

66,7% and only 11 times 3betted from SB so I wouldn't make any deep conclusions because few hands may change that % a lot. But those stats are already history:)

These are stats of 1147 hands played after those (total 240min during 4 days). 3bet @SB much higher but CO RFI has gone down. My biggest problem is still very high flop CBet 81,3% (success 54,1%)

But if I could keep that 35,31bb/100 winning rate I wouldn't care too much about other stats

Graph looks also nice.

Things to think about on cbet could be stuff like:

- How does ranges interact on flop?
- Do I block opponent continue range?
- How often can I continue aggression if getting called?
- Is facing raise an issue?
- What type of opponent am I facing?
- How much value check has?

Cbetting wide can work versus some opponents but it also has some issues in general:

- Can't continue aggression on turns that often as we lack equity/good blockers
- Bloat pots with medium strength hands that does not necessarily want that
- Leave check range very vulnerable

Some might think of checking as giving up on pot at certain level. But have to remember that most of time we do have some chance to improve on later streets even with weak hand and bluffing on later streets is still an option.

Theory wise most dictating question is how ranges interact on board. E.g. if we know it's better for opponent and we are also oop we should be checking huge amount. But this is also affected by villain type. Versus passive opponent we are still required to do more betting ourselves as villain is less likely to do it for us. Meaning we lose too much value by keeping most of strong hands in check range.

I think filtering out cbets in HU pots and in MW pots might be good. In MW pots we should weight our cbets heavily towards value in lower stakes. In HU it's different, as there are boards where we have enough FE to bet our whole air part of our range as a bluff. As a rule of thumb, HLL (High, 2 Lows) has higher FE than HHL boards in general. The tighter the opponent's range is, the more that is true.

I would say that in HU pot if you are not sure what to do on the flop, cbet is usually good/decent option. But if you find yourself often wondering what to do on the flop (cbet or check), it means that the flop strategy could be improved a lot.

I think my cbet in HU pots is quite high at lower micros, as no one plays back against it. Once the opponents start to think (probably at around PLO10), at least regs should be figuring out if hero cbets pretty much always. Also it's quite different thing to cbet a lot in HU in weak-tight pool (GG R&C) than in call-happy pool (normal site's PLO2 or PLO5).

Originally posted by Kyyberi
I think filtering out cbets in HU pots and in MW pots might be good. In MW pots we should weight our cbets heavily towards value in lower stakes. In HU it's different, as there are boards where we have enough FE to bet our whole air part of our range as a bluff. As a rule of thumb, HLL (High, 2 Lows) has higher FE than HHL boards in general. The tighter the opponent's range is, the more that is true.

HU pots flop Cbet 94,1% success 56,3%. 3+ on flop Cbet 43,5% success 40,0 %.

I have to play more to get something 10k+ hands when stats will be more reliable. And I try to put more hands with difficult flop decisions to PLO hand discussion.

94% is pretty much automatic cbet. The thing is, if opponents are folding 56% you are making immediate profit, as long as you don't spew around when they call or raise you.

But another thing is, could it be more +EV with some checking? When you cbet, you rarely get any value from opponent's bluffs. From some opponents, your EV is better when you also check some hands. Also, with that strategy check is almost always a giveup. That will backfire when you get up in stakes. Or if you move to another site where micro players are "normal". Usually at least couple high vpip players in the table, who just don't fold to cbets. Really high cbet strategy backfires in that enviroment too.

But if you play at low R&C and the goal is to make profits, then high cbet in HU pots probably is good default strategy as most opponents are weak-tight and fold way too much on the flop.

edit: also a good indicator is to filter out situations where it's HU and you cbet. And then check the winrate.

But if you play at low R&C and the goal is to make profits, then high cbet in HU pots probably is good default strategy as most opponents are weak-tight and fold way too much on the flop.

Now only normal PLO5 in GG (and some PLO2 ZOOM in PokerStars to get PS-points to keep Silver). Stats showm are from normal PLO5 @GG

edit: also a good indicator is to filter out situations where it's HU and you cbet. And then check the winrate.

Done. Winrate +189,43bb/100

Originally posted by Khiiniau

Winrate +189,43bb/100

HAHAHAHA Congrats, best PLO player in the world or 10 hand sample size...

Originally posted by Timmaywin

Originally posted by Khiiniau

Winrate +189,43bb/100

HAHAHAHA Congrats, best PLO player in the world or 10 hand sample size...
As told it's winrate from filtered hands that were HU on flop and I had cbetted. 101 from 1522. Winrate from all hands is now 29,87bb/100

Yeah, I have the same ~200bb/100 winrate with hyper aggro HU cbet style. It works when opponents are not fighting back with bluffs or floats. If the plan is to get up in stakes, the question is when to learn more balanced strategy? Now or later?

(Double post)

Originally posted by Kyyberi
Yeah, I have the same ~200bb/100 winrate with hyper aggro HU cbet style. It works when opponents are not fighting back with bluffs or floats. If the plan is to get up in stakes, the question is when to learn more balanced strategy? Now or later?

By floats do you total air or air with backup like air+gd/air+2bdfd? Because I understand we should increase calling freq vs high c-bettors, but to expand calling to total air is a bit much no? My thoughts we start calling more especially with made hands like TP+weak kicker, MP and some BP.
Also if villain is a maniac who is barreling a lot then you should have much tighter calling range OTF.

If you mean a situation where we are preflop callers and face a cbet from aggro cbettor, it depends a lot how he plays turns. If he is aggro 3 barreler, we need to be very careful with out calling range. If he is betting flop often, but gives up turns if not improved, we should start to call a lot with weaker hands and backdoors.

Example, if I would know that opponent is cbetting 90%, but barrels turn only when he has it, I wouldn't fold much on the flop. Either raising flops or calling, and when opponent checks I would bet turn with polarized range (bluffs and values).

In the morning sat at 4 PLO5 tables. In one of those all opponents unkown, opening and 3 betting with crap and bluffing with air. After this hand (BB didn't 3bet this time, turn AI 68%) I began to wonder why LB points in this table are smaller than in others and understood that it was a PLO10 table:f_cool:
(Holdem Manager has currently problem with exporting hands, instead of bet amount it shows folds, final results are correct so I put only picture)

Lot of good customers today morning before maintenance break. I buy a beer if somebody guess villains hand correctly.

GG Poker - $0.05 PL Hi (6 max) - Omaha Hi - 5 players
Hand converted by Holdem Manager 3

Hero (BB): $5.32 (106.4 bb)
UTG: $6.49 (129.8 bb)
CO: $13.00 (260 bb)
BTN: $5.70 (114 bb)
SB: $0.71 (14.2 bb)

SB posts $0.02, Hero posts BB $0.05

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.07) Hero has 5♣: 4♦: A♥: 9♣:
UTG calls $0.05, 3 folds, Hero checks

Flop: ($0.12, 2 players) 9♠: 9♥: 4♣:
Hero bets $0.09, UTG calls $0.09

Turn: ($0.30, 2 players) J♠:
Hero bets $0.23, UTG calls $0.23

River: ($0.76, 2 players) 9♦:
Hero bets $0.38, UTG calls $0.38

This is polarized range. Either it's JJ/AA or KQTx with K high.

Originally posted by Kyyberi
This is polarized range. Either it's JJ/AA or KQTx with K high.

Good guess, 2 correct K♥:T♥:7♠:2♠:

First day with GGpoker 7-max PLO tables was terrible. I couldn't win practically any showdowns, several river suckouts etc. I played tight as always and no big mistakes. HM3 does not support yet 7max in positional view so no reliable statistic per position. Graph shows how terrible was my day,

gg super tough imo ! 7max sounds like a cool idea, exactly something that they would come up with ♦ i enjoy gg but i consider it to be one of the toughest networks.

It was the best thing that happened to PLO, when full rings were extincted. Now they are increasing the seats again....

Firts hand in todays GGcare&Cheers flipout. Nice flop, had only 5000 starting chips. Was knocked out on 2nd hand but ITM with smallest prize $16,29:f_drink:

GG Poker - 500/1,000 Ante 74,263 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by Holdem Manager 3

MP+2: 74,263 (74.3 bb)
Hero (CO): 4,999 (5 bb)
BTN: 9,007 (9 bb)
SB: 66,481 (66.5 bb)
BB: 12,170 (12.2 bb)
UTG: 4,932 (4.9 bb)
UTG+1: 3,034 (3 bb)
MP: 3,832 (3.8 bb)
MP+1: 9,043 (9 bb)

, UTG posts ante 4,932 and is all-in, SB posts ante 66,481 and is all-in, UTG+1 posts ante 3,034 and is all-in, MP posts ante 3,832 and is all-in, MP+1 posts ante 9,043 and is all-in, BTN posts ante 9,007 and is all-in, Hero posts ante 4,999 and is all-in, MP+2 posts ante 74,263 and is all-in, BB posts ante 12,170 and is all-in

Pre Flop: (pot: 187,761) Hero has 8♠: 8♥:

Flop: (179,979, 9 players) 8♣: 3♠: 3♣:

Turn: (179,979, 9 players) K♦:

River: (179,979, 9 players) J♥:

Results: 179,979 pot
Final Board: 8♣: 3♠: 3♣: K♦: J♥:

SB shows 5♦: J♦:: (Two Pair, Jacks and Threes)
Main Pot: [27,306]: (Pre 7%, Flop 0%, Turn 0%)
Side Pot #1: [6,384]: (Pre 10%, Flop 0%, Turn 0%)
Side Pot #2: [7,700]: (Pre 10%, Flop 0%, Turn 0%)
Side Pot #3: [402]: (Pre 11%, Flop 0%, Turn 0%)
Side Pot #4: [20,040]: (Pre 16%, Flop 8%, Turn 8%)
Side Pot #5: [144]: (Pre 16%, Flop 9%, Turn 8%)
Side Pot #6: [9,381]: (Pre 21%, Flop 11%, Turn 9%)
Side Pot #7: [108,622]: (Pre 30%, Flop 16%, Turn 12%)

BB shows J♠: T♦:: (Two Pair, Jacks and Threes)
Main Pot: [27,306]: (Pre 7%, Flop 0%, Turn 0%)
Side Pot #1: [6,384]: (Pre 7%, Flop 0%, Turn 0%)
Side Pot #2: [7,700]: (Pre 8%, Flop 0%, Turn 0%)
Side Pot #3: [402]: (Pre 8%, Flop 0%, Turn 0%)
Side Pot #4: [20,040]: (Pre 9%, Flop 6%, Turn 1%)
Side Pot #5: [144]: (Pre 10%, Flop 6%, Turn 2%)
Side Pot #6: [9,381]: (Pre 27%, Flop 18%, Turn 9%)

UTG shows 7♠: K♣:: (Two Pair, Kings and Threes)
Main Pot: [27,306]: (Pre 11%, Flop 1%, Turn 7%)
Side Pot #1: [6,384]: (Pre 13%, Flop 1%, Turn 7%)
Side Pot #2: [7,700]: (Pre 16%, Flop 1%, Turn 7%)

UTG+1 shows 7♣: 5♥:: (One Pair, Threes)
Main Pot: [27,306]: (Pre 7%, Flop 0%, Turn 0%)

MP shows 4♣: 2♦:: (One Pair, Threes)
Main Pot: [27,306]: (Pre 14%, Flop 0%, Turn 0%)
Side Pot #1: [6,384]: (Pre 14%, Flop 0%, Turn 0%)

MP+1 shows T♠: A♣:: (One Pair, Threes)
Main Pot: [27,306]: (Pre 16%, Flop 1%, Turn 0%)
Side Pot #1: [6,384]: (Pre 17%, Flop 1%, Turn 0%)
Side Pot #2: [7,700]: (Pre 23%, Flop 1%, Turn 0%)
Side Pot #3: [402]: (Pre 28%, Flop 1%, Turn 0%)
Side Pot #4: [20,040]: (Pre 41%, Flop 62%, Turn 73%)
Side Pot #5: [144]: (Pre 42%, Flop 63%, Turn 73%)

MP+2 shows 9♥: Q♦:: (One Pair, Threes)
Main Pot: [27,306]: (Pre 13%, Flop 1%, Turn 0%)
Side Pot #1: [6,384]: (Pre 15%, Flop 1%, Turn 0%)
Side Pot #2: [7,700]: (Pre 18%, Flop 1%, Turn 0%)
Side Pot #3: [402]: (Pre 22%, Flop 1%, Turn 0%)
Side Pot #4: [20,040]: (Pre 28%, Flop 20%, Turn 13%)
Side Pot #5: [144]: (Pre 31%, Flop 22%, Turn 17%)
Side Pot #6: [9,381]: (Pre 52%, Flop 71%, Turn 81%)
Side Pot #7: [108,622]: (Pre 70%, Flop 84%, Turn 88%)

Hero shows 8♠: 8♥:: (Full House, Eights full of Threes)
Main Pot: [27,306]: (Pre 18%, Flop 97%, Turn 93%)
Side Pot #1: [6,384]: (Pre 20%, Flop 97%, Turn 93%)
Side Pot #2: [7,700]: (Pre 22%, Flop 97%, Turn 93%)
Side Pot #3: [402]: (Pre 26%, Flop 98%, Turn 100%)

BTN shows J♣: 9♠:: (Two Pair, Jacks and Threes)
Main Pot: [27,306]: (Pre 4%, Flop 0%, Turn 0%)
Side Pot #1: [6,384]: (Pre 4%, Flop 0%, Turn 0%)
Side Pot #2: [7,700]: (Pre 5%, Flop 0%, Turn 0%)
Side Pot #3: [402]: (Pre 5%, Flop 0%, Turn 0%)
Side Pot #4: [20,040]: (Pre 6%, Flop 4%, Turn 4%)

Hero wins 41,792
BTN wins 6,680
SB wins 120,065
BB wins 11,442