[Closed] qq vs utg open raise and T5s SS first in

1 hand

I dont like 3bet here. It looks so strong vs utg so i like to call and play postlop But when you 3bet there you cant 3bet/fold!!! Its the worse play here with queens. When you 3bet here you always 3bet/call. So NH.

But i prefer calling pre and play queens postflop.

2 hand

It depends but you have only 10bbs, suited Thigh hand and its not mistake for sure to put your chips in. You need to double up, you have fe.

Originally posted by budzior
1 hand

I dont like 3bet here. It looks so strong vs utg so i like to call and play postlop But when you 3bet there you cant 3bet/fold!!! Its the worse play here with queens. When you 3bet here you always 3bet/call. So NH.

why u think that u cant 3 bet fold with those reads i have on utg?

u say for ur self that 3 bet vs utg range looks so strong and when he shoves that looks even stronger dont u think?

Originally posted by TheRebuz
why u think that u cant 3 bet fold with those reads i have on utg?

u say for ur self that 3 bet vs utg range looks so strong and when he shoves that looks even stronger dont u think?

Because queens are too strong to do this. 3bet there with Q4off but not with QQ, which you can play very profitably postflop. You change one of the best hands into a bluff.
I prefer to FOLD queens there than 3bet/fold if you think his range is so strong but... No. He has 20 bbs, you have to play your queens there. So 3bet/call if you want to play it faster or call pre and play it postflop.

NEVER 3BET/FOLD.

i do not agree on this 1
yes QQ r strong hand but when u 3bet fold QQ ur not turning ur hand in bluf ur just giving credit to the other player that he got u beat or ur at least on flip and u dont want to risk ur whole stack in that spot

and btw i dont want blinds seeing good pot odds to came along and to play multiway pot with qq, vs tight UTG open range and almoust any playble hand that blinds can have,
and I think in this spot u cant make much profit with QQ post flop slow playing them preflop, couse if K or A came and UTG bet strong 2 barels u got to fold and if u got low flop utg if he dint hit set, JJ+ or big draw he will just bet fold or check fold so ur risking a lot with good hand leting blinds cheap in and crushing ur hand.
(this is scenario vs tight players, vs lag who r geting maried to theirs hand u can slow play qq preflop)

20 BB stack is good stack late in MTT, and thats why i make mine 3bet smaler to get an read and not to commite mine self to pot and find a good fold and yes i think that UTG range (vp13) is that tight ( 4bet shoving qq+,AK), and becouse QQ are strong hand u cand just fold them preflop u got to play them and see where u r in the hand

imo live u can make reads by player body language but online u got to use ur chips to make read on player hand, thats why imo the best play vs that kind of players is to 3bet fold to shove (but i was frustrated about that guy timing off every hand thats why i made a call but mine plan was to 3 bet fold to a shove)

there is no shame in folding a hand when u think ur beat

oh but there is shame "raise to see where you are at" with that stacksizes. it's just so bad. and dodging flips after raising 20% of your stack is not good either

Originally posted by alejandrosh
oh but there is shame "raise to see where you are at" with that stacksizes. it's just so bad. and dodging flips after raising 20% of your stack is not good either

♦ n1, shame "raise to see where you are at ♠_biggrin:

but I dont agree with that, I know that investing 20% of ur stack preflop and folding QQ sucks big time, but it sucks less when u think that in best scenario u r facing a flip

what r u all sugesting that with that stack size ur doomed to bust out if u get QQ u cant fold them u got to go with ur hand and bust out?
imo u alwaus have chances to win an tournament while ur in it, shortstacked or big stacked, but if u bust out u cant win it
so why u cant fold QQ preflop i dont understand, and I disagree with ur view, couse ur not giving me any good arguments
ur not hopeless (with stack) if u fold, ur not pot commited to call and imo ur neither geting right pot odds to call with QQ vs that range (AK,KK+)

imo this is not a clasic cooler u r 90%+ sure that ur facing AK,KK+ so u have a solid read and u cant say taht is cooler when u loose this hand

well I think getting QQ and running into KK+ with M<20 is in general a death sentence (poker death which means you will suck out 1/5th of the time)

if he is that tight then call but 3betting and folding is really bad unless you have:

-a guy opening loose
-low fold to 3bet even oop
-4betting only KK+
-deep stacks

how many of these can you get with an 11M on mtts? maybe he is 4betting only KK but I highly doubt you can get enough sample to be sure of this.

How you can be sure that he shoves there with kk+? Maybe he looks on you 3bet size and thought (hmm... its weird, why it is so small? he doesnt commit himself to the pot, ok i shove there AJoff, i think he can fold his crap).

If you think that his range is so tight, just fold it preflop, its better than 3bet/fold but also very very bad...

I was prety sure that he is that tight, he dint play any hand at all he played only 2 or 3 max in like 45min-1hour and 1 of them was KK and he played them the same way, he open utg, guy 3bet him he shoves guy called with JJ he have KK, and other hand in blinds he played he fold on flop and maybe he played 1 more hand in blinds or maybe not so he was very very tight so i can give him that tight range 90% of time KK+,AK

and of course u cant just fold QQ preflop u got to play them, live maybe u can fold them if u got tells on that player, but online u got to use chips to get info

@alejandrosh
what can u accomplished if u just call preflop?? u dont know were u r in the hand vs that kind of player u got to call any flop and fold on turn if he 2 barells and there is A or K there, even T or J is not good couse if he is betting hard he will often have TT JJ there HE WAS REALLY TIGHT ( i give him UTG open range TT+AQs+AK maybe AJs and AQ and vs him i was very happy if i win that pot preflop) + if u just call preflop ur giving blinds great pot odds to come in the hand and suck u out
+ yes i think that his 4beting range is KK+,AK

so mine Q was
does it folding OK in this spot (+ev in long run) with those reads couse u have like 22BB stack left behind and i dont think that ur geting right pot odds to call vs that range and ur not pot comited

if everything you said is correct calling has the advatange because you don't isolate yourself against a range you no longer beat. that's way better than "knowing where I'm at" which in my opinion a lot of the time is an eufemism of turning a good hand into a bluff

i got ur point so ur suggesting that vs very tight players is better to call inp and play it post flop than to 3 bet and put ur self in weird spot if he shoves.

btw i'm interested about this hand is folding QQ vs KK+,AK range in this spot, with 22BB left behind and someting like ~1,6:1 pot odds for a call is +or- EV desision in long run, i done some calulation on equilator but i dont get them... it looks to me that ur not getting right pot odds to call, is this try or what??

with your stacksize (M=11,x) you can NEVER 3bet fold QQ here.
he might shove JJ, AK, AQs so you allways get the odds to call if he shoves.
so no way to 3bet/fold QQ with your stack.

and i dont like calling, because you might get a multipot and QQ plays just bad in multiway pots.

so my standard here is 3bet/call with QQ in those buy ins 100% of the time.
your reads will never be that good to 3bet/fold QQ and its definitley weak to just call and see a multiway flop.

hand 2

with your stacksize it is not too bad to shove this hand, but for me i`d wait for a better one like 9To, Kx Ax but its not a mistake to shove here unless blinds are lose.