chess is a good example.
Its a game of opening strategies, counter strats, etc.
If you know your opponent, adjustments come into it too.
chess is a good example.
Its a game of opening strategies, counter strats, etc.
If you know your opponent, adjustments come into it too.
I will add my 2 cents from perspective of advanced chess player (ELO 2127)
First there is simply no pure bluffing in chess and very little room for semi bluffing and mindgames (chess example can be offering draw to slightly better opponent in slightly worse position with intention to "tilt" him to chase win at all costs instead of playing normaly)
Its also not true that better player always wins - like in poker the one, who makes less mistakes wins. In chess white have advantage of first move, generally the better players are the bigger advantage is. At beginner level it does not matter much (if at all) while at grandmaster level its very very hard to win as black (against opponent of similar skill)
In poker every hand is slightly different AK in cashgame 20BB deep is very different from cashgame 150BB deep or from bubble at SnG. Also it is very different against nit or against maniac. In chess starting position is always the same, openings are pretty standart and Your only goal is to get into type of position You like and/or opponent dislikes.
From perspective of playing for lining poker is much better. Being somewhere at 99.9-99.99 percentile in chess can hardly make decent living just by chess, while in poker 99.9-99.99 percentile means You are supershark, earning 6-digit $ per year.
I guess chess helped me with analytical approach, planning and made me hate variance more
Interesting is that poker actually helped me in chess a bit too.
Originally posted by Dendra...if chess had fog of war it would be equal in that aspect, because the board makes it easy for you to see what options your opponent has, so you only need to get into his mind...
Great post Dendra! Applying FOW to chess definitely sounds like challenge - I must make this happen and create some bluff-chess variation!
OZSA: I got 3 player chess as birthday gift from friend. It is actually interesting, but has very little common with normal chess. Where are You from btw? I live in Prague.
I think it is all about discipline. I think players who were successful from previous games obtained discipline and patience to reach the top.
Slightly off topic, but one thing I've found difficult as a chess player switching to poker is the decision time you have. I'm not bad at blitz chess, but prefer the standard slower time controls. In poker, particularly if you're playing several tables, your decision time is really short. If you're fairly new to the game and trying to recap how the bidding went in your head, put Villain on a range and make an optimal decision, I think it's really hard to do in the time available. I guess it's only by post game analysis that you can start to make part of the decision process faster and more subconscious, but really poker reminds me more of blitz chess than standard chess.
I'll say Starcraft over all.
RTS games are good at teaching strategies and pattern recognition, and Stacraft is simply the best RTS out there.
Look at the numbers, half of Team Liquid now plays poker, with Elky behing now a famous and recognised player, and think when he got the new world record for SNG multitabling...
There's also SK-Gaming with an e-poker section and more and more Starcraft players are moving over, is simple evolution.
So I now have WarCraft: Reign of Chaos and WarCraft: Frozen Throne expansion set.
Let's see how I go
My wife is out of town so I played War 3 for the first time in quite a while today, it was very relaxing. I am the master of tilting wannabe pros with my extensive repertoire of gimmick strategies.
nono kyle, you're doing it wrong
go for starcraft: brood war
if you wish a challenge that is, if you're in for fun, go for sc2 ![]()
when taking everything into account, it is safe to say that scbw is your best bet in pc games and that chess is your best bet in board games, those two represent the peak of evolution.
Reality is not always the way you see it
everything else is there to please the crowd and earn money - majority of the market consist of recreational players, lazy ones, dumb ones and spoiled ones - they bring the money, so the games are tailored to please their taste - as opposed to scbw, q3 and such unique titles which dont really care if you cant handle the heat - if you cant, there is plenty of easier games to choose.
same goes for chess, it aint here to give you an easy win, it aint here to make you feel good about yourself over a night, it's about competition and if you want to feel good, you gotta sweat and make an effort to become good.
it ain't fun being a loser, it ain't fun being bad at something - hence games approach the wide audience and make players believe they are really good at something - it's like putting 20 kids on an isolated island and telling them they have to run 100m under 20 seconds to be among top100 fastest humans in the world - they'll all run below 20 seconds easily and they'll all feel great.
now go tell them to run below 10 seconds and they'll spend 10 years of their life trying to do so and most of them will come up with the conclusion that they suck.
Bringing the right perspective with you
that is one of the major differences that scbw, chess and such players along with professional athletes have over those who have come from their backyard where their daddy tells them they're the greatest in the world. poker is reality and you have to be capable of putting yourself in the right perspective - that you suck, that you are horrible and that you are far from a good player and that you must work hard to become good.
not many players out there are really aware of their actual skill level and in poker you have to be capable of analysing yourself, admitting you made a bad play and that you need to work on your game - not blame it on luck or anything else besides yourself.
you can't really hide from tough parts of poker, you can't erase them and still call yourself a poker player - as opposed to gaming where I've had top pros in wc3 openly admit they ran away from scbw because it was too hard for too little money as opposed to wc3; then as an act of even further retreat, you have some wc3 guys turning to dota.
cutting away pieces of RTS until finally you reach a "game" that you're good at, well congratulations - that's like playing poker by asking the dealer to give you only AA/KK and then shoving those preflop.
Poker - the ultimate game?
my point being that poker is a huge game with virtually endless room to improve yourself, whereas majority of the games dont give you that amount of freedom because then the edge that top pros have over the weakest players is immense.
that is why you see such a large difference in skill level between scbw pros and foreigners, that is why a chess pro can see eight or whatever amount of moves in advance whereas an amateur can barely see two.
now imagine chess in which you are limited to thinking one move at a time - not that fun to any intelligent person, but to millions of people who are too lazy to use their heads - damn, it might be the next best game ever made!
so what attracts the lamb to dance with wolves in poker? variance, human error and puncher's chance, so to say. no matter how good you are, you'll still lose some pots to fish, you'll still make some mistakes and lambs (aka fish) will always feel like they have a chance to catch a pro off guard and take his money - they just need to catch the right cards, or so they think.
while a poker player will know the true nature of won/lost hands, a gambler will call it luck or his incredible skill - disregarding the fact he made a bad or good play.
come to think of it, it seems that poker is truly the ultimate game out there - it offers endless ways to improve yourself but the edge that you gain on others is falsely nullified by variance, aka both sides of human race are happy - the sharks can sharpen themselves and turn into perfect tools for poker warfare and fish can always win a battle or two, just enough to keep them thinking they're winning the war.
you won't see such balance in games like scbw or chess. hence fish won't enjoy playing those games with anyone besides their own kin, other fish.
Playing guarantees nothing
it takes years to get an inside look and understand what you see as a scbw or chess player, but that doesn't mean that playing scbw for 10 years will give you any tools that a wc3 player might have as well.
there are people I know to have played sc since its beginning and they couldn't and never will reach 10% of skill and knowledge a smart player obtains in 2 years. I'm not too happy with the usage of the word smart, because it's a lot about the right attitude, mindset and approach to the game - so you can be a very smart person, but if you fail to set yourself on the right track, it won't do you no good.
my point being that playing scbw won't guarantee a beneficial effect to your poker game. what it will guarantee is an opportunity to evolve yourself in a similar way poker allows you and by doing so, you can learn more about yourself and implement that to your evolution as a poker player.
obviously, same goes for chess and sports. if you learn how to improve yourself, to sacrifice and to push yourself further and further, you will be able to apply that knowledge to other areas of life, in this case poker.
so as a wise man once said, don't bounce for the sake of bouncing