[Closed] nl400 hu: 3 bet pot 54o

<Moved to bss board>

Do you expect a better hand than a pair of 5's to fold?

hi nophun,

I dislike the preflop call (which you said u knew). I also think that if you're going for bluffcatching (wrong one in general- your offsuit very low SC is often against overpairs or hands with at least 6 (or more outs)) then raising turn is bad as you don't make villain fold stronger hands (than yours). This is basically what is the standard.

Still, Your question is very interesting. I will hopefully take a closer look at these types of plays and prolly post some kind of more verbose analysis in the future. I think, though, that it requires tons of analysis and answer to the question regarding hands with higher flush-making hand. (and, in general, answering the question- what hands you want villain fold there?)

cheers

Would like to hear more toughts here. Imo reaising for protection is not good, betting for value, obv not good, and as a bluff u dont get better hands to fold too. Buuut, if hes c/c with overcads + fd, then we could shove for value i guess, cause hes very capable of doing this every single time?

Flame on, IM A FISH

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Fold preflop

I prefer to bluffcatch 3 barrels rather than raise turn as we can only get called by Ax with the FD and playing HU it's not a big part of his range. So between calling or raising, I call. I wouldn't be in that spot though as I don't call preflop because we gotta always too often to make it profitable. If he's 3betting 35% opf his hands and calling with another interesting %, just fold preflop and you won't have to decide whether you can call or not a 3bet.

Samy

Originally posted by samy4ever

I prefer to bluffcatch 3 barrels rather than raise turn as we can only get called by Ax with the FD and playing HU it's not a big part of his range. So between calling or raising, I call.

Makes sense, but c/c on such boards is extremely tough, because good opponent is likely to adapt and value bet thinly a wider range of value hands.

Calling a 3bet w/45o is in my opinion a mistake and I would like to see a database of the player who calls a 3bet IP w/45o vs TAG and wins money.

cheers,
Michal

Originally posted by sapheal

Originally posted by samy4ever

I prefer to bluffcatch 3 barrels rather than raise turn as we can only get called by Ax with the FD and playing HU it's not a big part of his range. So between calling or raising, I call.

Makes sense, but c/c on such boards is extremely tough, because good opponent is likely to adapt and value bet thinly a wider range of value hands.

Of course, but the problem here is that we get into trouble because of our preflop play. I don't like to calldown (because I just fold preflop as my pairs are not going to be strong enough) but if I have to choose between shoving/calling, I prefer the last option. Balancing apart as we don't know anything else.

Calling a 3bet w/45o is in my opinion a mistake and I would like to see a database of the player who calls a 3bet IP w/45o vs TAG and wins money.

cheers,
Michal

Prob. noone, I agree, but he said he already knew this (so he was missclicking, tilting, or just wanted to outplay for whatever reason, but he knows it's not +ev, so I just didn't explained it).

Am I right?

Samy

Originally posted by samy4ever

Of course, but the problem here is that we get into trouble because of our preflop play. I don't like to calldown (because I just fold preflop as my pairs are not going to be strong enough) but if I have to choose between shoving/calling, I prefer the last option. Balancing apart as we don't know anything else.

Calldown makes more sense as we keep his potential range wide whereas via raise we cannot be rly sure we can make him fold an overpair. The point that makes the difference between calling and raising even less volatile (vulnerable) is that it is tough (for many players, although it shouldnt be?- see next paragraph) to thin value bet on this board vs a medium/low wtsd. Agree?

For the sake of analysis, lets say I'm always calling a set vs. villain's AA there, and he tries to value bet thinly. If I raise R or T, then prolly for value? Therefore he should be willing to value bet thin, because he knows what my raise means and there is a decent calling range.

Originally posted by samy4ever

Prob. noone, I agree, but he said he already knew this (so he was missclicking, tilting, or just wanted to outplay for whatever reason, but he knows it's not +ev, so I just didn't explained it).

agreed.

Originally posted by sapheal

Originally posted by samy4ever

Of course, but the problem here is that we get into trouble because of our preflop play. I don't like to calldown (because I just fold preflop as my pairs are not going to be strong enough) but if I have to choose between shoving/calling, I prefer the last option. Balancing apart as we don't know anything else.

Calldown makes more sense as we keep his potential range wide whereas via raise we cannot be rly sure we can make him fold an overpair. The point that makes the difference between calling and raising even less volatile (vulnerable) is that it is tough (for many players, although it shouldnt be?- see next paragraph) to thin value bet on this board vs a medium/low wtsd. Agree?

For the sake of analysis, lets say I'm always calling a set vs. villain's AA there, and he tries to value bet thinly. If I raise R or T, then prolly for value? Therefore he should be willing to value bet thin, because he knows what my raise means and there is a decent calling range.

Originally posted by samy4ever

Prob. noone, I agree, but he said he already knew this (so he was missclicking, tilting, or just wanted to outplay for whatever reason, but he knows it's not +ev, so I just didn't explained it).

agreed.

Uhm... I don't really check WTSD very often. I think it's too influenced by other factors like VPIP, aggresivity and so on. Therefore it's better to analyze other stats rather than this one. Either way, if we are playing HU we gotta valuebet the river thinly a lot, otherwise we are beaten no matter what. Also, playing HU his stats are going to be much difference. For instance, king10clubs 3bets around 7% playing SH but if he plays HU, he 3bets more than 25% (or at least more than 20% as std). What I mean is that I think we are overratig stats at this level and A9/AA/9Q is going to valuebet the river 100%. 88 will depend on the villain calling range, if he raises TP on the flop (specially in a 3bet pot) if he can calldown 97 (because it's quite similar to 88 or 65)... Etc. But not about WTSD stat IMO.

BTW, I don't think hero can ever fold an overpair here !

I'm not sure I replied everything haha let me know if I missed sth

Samy

Very good, then Then if we bet river thin, and get raised allin on blank, we should think that given these odds we're required to fold very rarely given that our range is very strong. Lets think about something along the way.

Where do you prefer to raise sets? I guess the answer would be to raise sets (in good spots ofc) against players who tend to call w/overpair/toppair nokicker flop raise or vs against players that will value bet thinly against you misplaying your turn calling range playing b-b-b/f(b/c) line rather than b-c-b. Which line you'd say would be the most effective versus different types of players then?

I like it already, there's gonna be some fruitful discussion, I guess.

cheers,
Michal

Originally posted by sapheal
Very good, then Then if we bet river thin, and get raised allin on blank, we should think that given these odds we're required to fold very rarely given that our range is very strong. Lets think about something along the way.

Where do you prefer to raise sets? I guess the answer would be to raise sets (in good spots ofc) against players who tend to call w/overpair/toppair nokicker flop raise or vs against players that will value bet thinly against you misplaying your turn calling range playing b-b-b/f(b/c) line rather than b-c-b. Which line you'd say would be the most effective versus different types of players then?

I like it already, there's gonna be some fruitful discussion, I guess.

cheers,
Michal

I guess I will raise this turn lots of times because if he has OESD + SD Value has to call most of the times and so on, being a HU. He can 3bet random hand and he has lot of equity on this turn. If the turn is a blank I would just call turn and shove river (I'm not so scared of a FD in HU stuff). The other line is raising the flop if he cbets a lot on this boards and consequently im raising many times. But this would depend on the villain...

Samy