[Closed] Call or not?

as played i call

Dont know what stages of the tourney but you have 35 BB starting off with

if you want to play these kind of hands raise preflop and then they cant put you on that hand and if you hit you can get paid off

on flop , he bets , you reraise & he reraises all-in
you have to think he is on a hand of some sort and you are behind and if you put it into pokerstove it shows you 50/50 with 13 outs

personally I would fold & look for a better spot , in tournaments you have to take 50/50 shots some time but like to pick my spots

Curnow the post says deep, maybe that wasnt explicit enough.

I based my decision on a couple of factors a) He was very loose and aggressive while not being a complete donkey.

b) I had favorable pot odds so if it is 50-50 I should clearly call.

As for the preflop entrance without a raise thats a different matter, the table permitted it and if they do i like seeing plenty of flops cheaply. I know that there is a school of poker thought which says never enter without a raise. Most people here subscribe to that, I dont. It is largely a matter of preference there is no point debating that. Which is why my initial post asked for an analysis of the post flop play (I know most of the experts here would disagree with the limp, I think differently and there is no point debating it really).

From his bet I deduced, 20% chance of a stone bluff in which case I hit the jackpot.

5-10% chance of his having a straight in which case my outs give me only a chopped pot.

and the rest is roughly a tossup between him having top pair or a draw similar to mine... given that I had around 13 outs, favorable pot odds and the slight probability that I was already ahead I thought this was a clear call.

Yes I had 35 BB but you shouldn't calculate these in terms of BBs but instead use M. Essentially you have entirely missed the effect of the antes. Essentially if i folded I would have barely enough for 10 rounds with blinds rapidly accelerating (not a great position at all).

Originally posted by Prabhatallin
Curnow the post says deep, maybe that wasnt explicit enough.

my biggest win to date
the later stages of this tourney were 20000/40000 blinds and that is deep and making bad calls will cost you hundreds of dollars

Originally posted by Prabhatallin
b) I had favorable pot odds so if it is 50-50 I should clearly call.

You can still get away from it , you only put 5400 into this and 15800 to call , you are not gonna win every 50/50 and wont stay long in tournaments taking on big stacks calling like this

There is a British pro/presenter that works on Sky poker and used to present Poker Night Live called Mark Banin and he recommended that you dont have to play ABC poker and can play hands like 78o and raise in position & if a K or A comes can repesent it and if you hit bingo , they wont put you on the hand

Originally posted by Prabhatallin

As for the preflop entrance without a raise thats a different matter, the table permitted it and if they do i like seeing plenty of flops cheaply. I know that there is a school of poker thought which says never enter without a raise. Most people here subscribe to that, I dont. It is largely a matter of preference there is no point debating that. Which is why my initial post asked for an analysis of the post flop play (I know most of the experts here would disagree with the limp, I think differently and there is no point debating it really).

Why is there no point in debating it? We're all here to learn and discuss, that is the purpose of these forums after all?

I think the point about raising is that it not only shows strength and therefore gives you more FE with a cbet on the flop but it also means that suited connecters, low pocket pairs can't play for implied odds, you might even be able to include the BB making 2 pair from his freeplay here which might happen often enough to make limping -EV. Why not raise? Your first in from the button and it's very likely you'll pick up the blinds there and then without resistance.

I'm no MTT expert, just my take on it. I think discussion is healthy in all situations, that said though you have no obligation to read my post or to reply

No I certainly did not intend to mean that I refuse to discuss the subject. On the contrary I would love to. It is just that I anticipated several
"ZOMG this doesnt meet the Divine Starting Hand Requirements...go read Article XYZ and then play poker" responses.
My point is that they are several different valid choices with this hand and in this position, including, call, raise and fold. There is no point saying that one is outright wrong. The reason I did not raise was I didn't want to face a large re-raise and be forced to muck my hand. Also I did not think the opposition was good enough to notice that I am representing a High hand and play accordingly.

Curnow (Of course a bad call could cost me, thats precisely what the thread is for- to evaluate whether the call was bad or not).

My analysis indicated that I was probably 55% all considered and I had pot odds. If I muck it, I am under pressure, how many spots can I wait for and where is the guarantee I will get a better chance to double. Even if I do double up later, the double up would get me nowhere near where I go if I win this hand.

I am by no means the end-all tournament expert - but I'll give my take on it regardless

Although you only want to discuss the flop play - I think that this is very hard to do in a MTT since especially in Tournaments a lot of external factors gain importance. Also interesting to know ofc are the other factors that could influence his play e.G: are we at the bubble, ITM? How far to the money/FT? How many people left in the tournament?

Preflop: If I want to play this Hand I will raise it - simply because if I do hit something I want to have a pot to play for - and ofc for the posibility of actually winning the blinds uncontested. I dont really like open-limping from the button unless its to e.G. incite an aggro BB into raising me so I can re-raise him or something of the like.

Flop: I would also raise him here - and against the re-raise I have to take his image and other factors (bubble etc) into consideration.

Since you say he is aggro, I think he will push with a lot of stuff here knowing that you will be forced to fold many hands - especially if this is at the bubble. In consideration of those factors - I give myself atleast a coin-flip - maybe im even ahead against a rag-queen or 8. Worst case scenario he has something like QT but I think he would have raised most hands that hit this flop preflop.

So as played: Call
Otherwise: Raise pre-flop

Best regards,
SoyCD

50/50 is very very good (= unfoldable) with the amount of deadmoney already there..

which is why the call preflop is bad. because you commit yourself to marginal situations later on...

Originally posted by chenny8888
50/50 is very very good (= unfoldable) with the amount of deadmoney already there..

which is why the call preflop is bad. because you commit yourself to marginal situations later on...

lol I am interested , how many 50/50 against a big stack that can knock you out do you want to take in a tourament on the bases that in every other one you are going to be knocked out

SoyCD is right and it depends on the situation , in these tournament you have to be able to fold a good hand sometimes

whether you won the hand is not important , its if you played the game well
in the hand you have three decisions
1)preflop play
2)flop raise
3)call all-in

Originally posted by Prabhatallin
No I certainly did not intend to mean that I refuse to discuss the subject. On the contrary I would love to. It is just that I anticipated several
"ZOMG this doesnt meet the Divine Starting Hand Requirements...go read Article XYZ and then play poker" responses.
My point is that they are several different valid choices with this hand and in this position, including, call, raise and fold. There is no point saying that one is outright wrong. The reason I did not raise was I didn't want to face a large re-raise and be forced to muck my hand. Also I did not think the opposition was good enough to notice that I am representing a High hand and play accordingly.

Curnow (Of course a bad call could cost me, thats precisely what the thread is for- to evaluate whether the call was bad or not).

My analysis indicated that I was probably 55% all considered and I had pot odds. If I muck it, I am under pressure, how many spots can I wait for and where is the guarantee I will get a better chance to double. Even if I do double up later, the double up would get me nowhere near where I go if I win this hand.

Agreed, comments like those would be unproductive.

Would you then, limp fold or call a raise? I can see your logic for not rasing yourself in order to not be re-raised but if he raised I would be compelled to call I think. Similar to the check call in Limit, by not betting you protect yourself from being raised as villain can only bet? I think this is your reasoning anyway.

Originally posted by curnow

Originally posted by chenny8888
50/50 is very very good (= unfoldable) with the amount of deadmoney already there..

which is why the call preflop is bad. because you commit yourself to marginal situations later on...

lol I am interested , how many 50/50 against a big stack that can knock you out do you want to take in a tourament on the bases that in every other one you are going to be knocked out

SoyCD is right and it depends on the situation , in these tournament you have to be able to fold a good hand sometimes

whether you won the hand is not important , its if you played the game well
in the hand you have three decisions
1)preflop play
2)flop raise
3)call all-in

that's why i'm saying fold preflop.....

as played on the flop he's given 1.76:1 pot odds to call, ie 15749 (and yes, his tournament life) for a pot of 27674.. when he's most likely 50/50. pot odds say he needs a 28.4% chance to win to call here. so, barring very extreme circumstances (like we're on the bubble for a satellite where top 5 get an entry, and 6th gets absolutely nothing), this hand is unfoldable..

a more extreme example, which i witnessed first-hand while playing pub-poker here (buy-in = 0$, prizes are points which then go towards end of season rewards. effectively these tournaments are heavy crapshoots)

8-handed:

Relevant Stacks:

Hero: 3050
UTG+1: 5000
BB: 800

blinds 200/400:

Hero is CO with KJo.
UTG+1 raises to 1200.
Hero calls
BB calls

Flop: 942 rainbow

UTG+1 checks.
Hero bets 3000
UTG+1 raises to 3050
Hero FOLDS

UTG+1 flips over JJ and hero mentions how it was a good fold.

obviously i'm not hero here, but how much of a weighting can you put on your tournament life? are you really going to just entirely ignore pot odds?

OK my thoughts

Preflop isn't good, I would stealraise, limping vs donks usually is not the best idea.

Flop I would not reraise him, I would reraise him if I could get all my chips in, but that would be overplayed here, and because I am comitting myself with a reraise here, I just wouldn't do it. Flat call on the Flop and see what the turn brings you. As you realised the odds were to good to fold after he shoved, but you won't have the best hand if he shoves, unless he has 98,