FT 3 left, how strong is any pair?

i 4betshove pre tbh

you should always have a plan , how you going to play this & thats why prefer 4bet shove preflop

the problem with calling is with sb first to act , its shove or fold with him pretty much commited to the pot , stil think you got to shove here as the flop very good for you unlucky he has a 6

i don't like call at all. you have position but 55 play horrible postflop! you see always overcards and you're not pre agressor. if he's lose enough and 3bets often i just get it in preflop. if hes 3betting really tight so far i would just fold!
but in that spot 3bet shove should be ok since he can 3bet you very light because of the given stacksizes!

Yeah, I didnt like the call myself after I made it lol. Should have shoved. In any event, the flop was about as good as I could have hoped for and I had decided to shove any flop without an Ace anyway.
I shoved and he called with AQ and blanked the rest of the board so all worked out in the end

Just fold, even if he has an image of 3betting wide - no player is really imo 3bet/folding enough here to justify shoving.

Originally posted by amplifyd
Just fold, even if he has an image of 3betting wide - no player is really imo 3bet/folding enough here to justify shoving.

i do not agree with bold part in this spot

i think u r ahead a lot of time so u r shoving for value + he will fold a lot of hands that u r flipping with + maybe sometimes 66-99 type of hands and he will call u off with AQ+ maybe AJ type of hands a lot of time(depends how scared money villain is and game dynamic) and if u win that flip u will be in great shape to win whole thing having 3:1 cheap lead vs both of them

and just calling sucks imo cos 55 play very very bad post flop

imo calling is really bad here , if he'd make a normal-size 3bet then 4bet shove would be the best option but here it's close , we can justify folding

Originally posted by coorchuck
imo calling is really bad here , if he'd make a normal-size 3bet then 4bet shove would be the best option but here it's close , we can justify folding

what is normal size 3bet?

I agree that just calling was horrible here but I cant agree with just folding. Surely 3 way 55 is strong enough to 4 bet shove?

End of day you can't really do much wrong, i'd probably base it on game flow meta etc, tho I would take note of the 36k raise - I don't really expect to have too much FE here. That being said I often see regs do it to give this illusion, and you infact have a ton

Originally posted by amplifyd
End of day you can't really do much wrong, i'd probably base it on game flow meta etc, tho I would take note of the 36k raise - I don't really expect to have too much FE here. That being said I often see regs do it to give this illusion, and you infact have a ton
exactly
imo 36k is perfect 3bet sizing in this spot putting our HERO in spot that he got to decide is he is going to play for stacks here

so is all about meta and game dinamic in this spot but in vacuum i think u r like always ahead vs his range, i think that villain will 3bet top of his range less then 3x in this spot to get some action from u or BB

shoving sucks only cos when u get called u r way behind or flipping u r never way ahead

i'm not so sure about the strength of his 3bet size. i also see some regs 3betting oop bigger because it has more fe!
greets

To chime in I do believe he has a 3bet folding range here. He has the best of situations here because of his chip leverage. For that reason he can three bet against you so wide because ICM tells you to be tight and wait for the other shorty to bust.

For all these reasons I would go with a 4bet shove here preflop.

Originally posted by AaronLambert
To chime in I do believe he has a 3bet folding range here. He has the best of situations here because of his chip leverage. For that reason he can three bet against you so wide because ICM tells you to be tight and wait for the other shorty to bust.

For all these reasons I would go with a 4bet shove here preflop.

signed -> i like 4bet shove as i posted earlier too

thanks everyone for your feedback, think we have established that in future calling is horrible and either fold or 4bet shove is best and I prefer the shove, seen it so many times at FT that people get focussed on laddering up and not busting, even big chip leaders like to throw their weight around a bit but dont want to get dragged back into the chasing pack

Originally posted by rhinoneil
thanks everyone for your feedback, think we have established that in future calling is horrible and either fold or 4bet shove is best and I prefer the shove, seen it so many times at FT that people get focussed on laddering up and not busting, even big chip leaders like to throw their weight around a bit but dont want to get dragged back into the chasing pack

NO u got it wrong imo, it all depends on stack sizes => calling is bad in this spot with this stack sizes

if u were like
Stacks:
1rhinoneil (BTN) (202k)
SB (245k)
BB (157k)
folding or calling (with intention to call on most flops) is best depending of game flow and 4beting or shoving is bad imo

if u were like
Stacks:
1rhinoneil (BTN) (252k)
SB (245k)
BB (207k)
folding>calling imo and 4betting is really really bad

etc

Just wanted to add: as a general rule of thumb, the bigger the villain makes it the more you should lean towards reraising or folding with your more marginal hands. The smaller the villain makes it, the more you should lean towards calling or folding with your more marginal hands. Here 55 is a clear marginal hand, and villain makes it huge. To be perfectly honest, once he 3x's my original betsize in a vacuum I would just muck it. But, for example, if I had been raising every button previously and this is his first 3bet (one of many metagame possibilities) then I wouldn't hesitate in putting it in.