[Closed] atheist

Originally posted by silent21
So why the Vatican exist nowadays? Why so much power is given to the Pope when he is basically no one?

Because there are over a billion catholics in the world, and the pope is considered the leader of their church. It's more of a tradition really, the pope doesn't even have the power to ban condoms anymore.

Originally posted by sirilidion
the quote that Einstein is religious has been misquoted by christians mostly that Einstein was religious

No idea what christianity has to do with Einstein's beliefs, but that aside. You missed my point completely. I just wanted to disprove the statement that "all thinking men are atheists", and I'd like to jump on the bandwagon and throw in another Einstein quote that I'll need to reference later.

"I believe in Spinoza's God, who reveals himself in the lawful harmony of the world, not in a god who concerns himself with the fate and the doings of mankind."

Originally posted by sirilidion
Also the argument that a person in smart and believes in God thus the bible makes you think is a false one.

Awesome. Did anyone actually make that statement?

Originally posted by sirilidion
If you read any of the holy books thinking is not advised. Any of the holy books are filled with inconsistencies, have views of the world in them that have proven by scientist to be false, events in those books don't match historic data.

I'd say the bible isn't mean to be taken literally, it's meant to teach people how to live, but I already said it before, people just don't seem to pay attention.

Originally posted by sirilidion
Ethics? which ethics are that? the bible seems not to have a problem with rape and slavery, it advices killing of homosexuals, witches, killing non-believers and there are a lot of other awful things that are disapproved in modern society. Also which ethics are there in the bible that men doesn't know for themselves? Do you think that without religion people wouldn't know that killing and stealing is wrong?

We're talking religion, not solely catholicism. People sometimes use biased translations of certain verses in the Qur'an to prove that Islam encourages murder of infidels, does that mean my Turkish neighbors I had a bbq with yesterday are out to kill me? As for ethics, people are vicious little bastards. They steal, they rape, they kill, and they have been doing it all along. Right now most don't commit crime because they're afraid they'll go to prison, and cops regularly scare people straight. Back in the days christians scared people straight by telling them they'll suffer for eternity for their sins. They also encouraged good relationships to yourself and others, be honest, don't steal, love thy neighbor, etc. Might sound cliché, but it's not as evident as you might think for people to just have those virtues all by themselves.

Originally posted by sirilidion
religion is suppose to make you think. Well lets see what this graph has to say about that:

This is arguable, but a person's IQ is imo nothing more than his ability to solve IQ tests. I scored 128 on my first test, 131 on my second and 135 on the third. All tests took approximately two hours and were conducted in a timespan of one year. Did I magically get smarter in a year or something? But I digress again. I'm interested in how many people the test was conducted on (sample size) and how their IQ was measured, the site in the link kind of neglects to mention that...

Originally posted by sirilidion
ah... Jesus message, the good stuff. Although he never wrote down anything down what he said and the chapters of the new testament weren't written after more then 100 years after they say these events happened. They still claimed they know exactly what Jesus said. But even not taking these facts into account the bible having some things in them that would have value in life doesn't prove it validity. There are a lot of books of fiction that have good messages in them but people consider them what they are books of fiction. Also the existions of Jesus is never proven, there are no historical data found of this person and the events that the bible claimed happened. Also most of Jesus so called miracles can be easily replicated by an magician.

Come on, if people believe they should let their son die by denying blood transfusion because the bible says "thou shalt not take the blood of another", it's their own mental dysfunction. By what I've read so far, you base your entire view on religion on that kind of people, and act as if all christians treat the bible like a history book. Next, it's the general consensus amongst historians nowadays that Jesus did exist and was crucified in Jerusalem. Obviously he never turned water into wine or anything, but he did teach people among other things pacifism, which Mahatma Gandhi later successfully applied and popularized. No appreciation for that?

Originally posted by sirilidion
you claim that religion doesn't intervene with science but almost all scientific founds have been highly protested against by religion and if religion had the power they once had we would never even be close the modern society we have now.

So, how did Hinduism protest against science? How about orthodox church? Pagan beliefs? Buddhism?

Originally posted by sirilidion
Childeren are golible. As parent you can let them believe almost anything. As an example just see how easy it is to let childeren believe there is a Santa Claus. To expose and dogtrine them into religion and teaching them they are bad and they are going to burn in hell if they don't believe in Jesus is purely psychological child abuse imo.

No argument there. I believe a person should have freedom of choice when it comes to belief, but nowadays most children raised in religious families kind of "inherit" their parents' religion. On a different note, is the boogie man also a product of psychological child abuse according to you?

Originally posted by sirilidion
The only way religion can survive is by using misinformation, dogma and fear.

I'll be sure to tell that to my buddhist friends.

Originally posted by Hahaownedlolz
LOL, it's pretty funny how Berzerger is the only person who belives in god in this thread (Or he really likes to argue with people for no reason).

Oh, I love arguing, especially when I'm drunk. I don't believe in god though, but I don't furiously dismiss the possibility of his existence either.

Originally posted by Hahaownedlolz
Why would he allow such horrible things to happen on earth??
When your 8 year old child gets raped and murdered.. then that's god's will?
It would have had to be her time?

Read Einstein's quote above. Why do you think god cares about you and should interfere at any point where something goes wrong?

Originally posted by delete461
what ethics does the bible teach us?
that if somebody is homosexual we should automatically dislike them even before we meet them?

its ok to tell children they will burn in hell forever if they dont think the way I think?

The catholic church has done everything in its power to prevent contraceptives reaching africans. Now that ridiculous numbers of africans are infected with AIDS, the church isnt budging and continues to actively prevent the use of condoms.
(I know this view isnt shared by all christians, but it is the "ethics" which religious leaders have taken from their religion)

You're using pertinent examples again. As a good catholic it's one's duty to care for people and help them, not discriminate against them. Sooner or later catholics will start accepting gay people as a normal part of the society. I already addressed the issue of mental child abuse above, but I'd like to add that it's pretty much what my mother told me when I was four. I never really believed it and it didn't traumatize me. As for condoms, the main reason the church opposed them was because they were afraid sex would just become a meaningless activity, and people would no longer need relationships and connect to each other, but instead just get together to fuck. Saying that the pope wants the world to get venereal diseases would be pretty ignorant. But I agree they could have done a better job explaining their point rather than trying to enforce it.

Originally posted by delete461
People are dying every day of cancer and leukemia, scientists are doing everything they can via stem cell research to find a cure and religious nuts are doing everything they can to impede those scientists.

And here we go with pertinent examples again...

Originally posted by delete461
Christians overwhelmingly reject the DNA evidence supporting evolution - yet they sleep soundly at night while this science is used every day in criminal courts to put people in prison. If the science really is as flawed as they would have us believe, this is a massive perversion of justice. If psychic evidence were to start being used in court there would be an uproar.

It's not religion's ambition to openly bash everything related to science. Which is incidentally exactly what science does to religion. As said, if someone believes Adam and Eve were the first two people on Earth, it's his problem, but that doesn't mean every other view his religion has to offer should immediately be rejected without second thought. Finally, all psychics are frauds, and should be listed among superstition even by Christians, just like bad luck on Friday 13th, a black cat crossing the road in front of you, spilling salt, breaking a mirror etc.

Originally posted by delete461
Most christians believe they are somehow morally superior to atheists yet these positions are morally abhorrent and disgusting, and religion is the ONLY reason to hold these views.

Religion is the only reason to look down on people? Seriously? What happened to live and let live?

EDIT: accidental post sry

Originally posted by silent21So why the Vatican exist nowadays? Why so much power is given to the Pope when he is basically no one?

The Catholic Church in the early XX century was slowly dying, they've been lucky enough that there was an Italian government who needed money to go to war, so borrowed money from the Church and returned the favour with the Lateran treaty.

Later on many Italian governments made many a favour to the Church which is today living off Italian's citizens taxes. To this date is extimated that in between money paid to and for church, and money not earned by the Italian government due to Vatican's benefits, the Church cost to the Italian citizens an average of 7/8 millions Euros per year.

The church owns over 20% of the Italian property and has many Italian bonds, they've already received in the past many favours simply by hinting that upon not receiving something they'll flood the market, Italy would be bankrupted for good.

There are also trails that link the Vatican with Mafia and other criminal organisations, an inquest was done many years ago trying to link the Vatican bank to the Mafia for money laundering, everything came to an alt when the head of the bank was found hanged under a bridge in London.
Is also quite funny to observe how in the Vatican crypt usually reserved for the burial of popes and archibishops only, a few years ago they permitted the burial of a Mafia boss.

Now, when you have this sort of backup, you have plenty of power.

PS. this is just the tip of the iceberg, if I was to even try to report here all of the information related it could take forever. Funny how an American president getting a head in his office goes on all the papers, but nobody is interested in a corrupted and leaching Vatican.

Originally posted by degre
Is also quite funny to observe how in the Vatican crypt usually reserved for the burial of popes and archibishops only, a few years ago they permitted the burial of a Mafia boss.

Very interesting. Source of info please?

Originally posted by Berzerger

Originally posted by degre
Is also quite funny to observe how in the Vatican crypt usually reserved for the burial of popes and archibishops only, a few years ago they permitted the burial of a Mafia boss.

Very interesting. Source of info please?

More or less any media.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enrico_De_Pedis
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4198922.ece
http://news.scotsman.com/world/Disgraced-Vatican-chief-39ordered-.4214415.jp
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jun/24/internationalcrime.catholicism

Berzerger actually has a point, but to understand it u have to separate religion from politics. Just because religion was abused for achieving political goals doesn't mean it is "bad" or has to do anything with politics.

Originally posted by Skyscrapers
Berzerger actually has a point, but to understand it u have to separate religion from politics. Just because religion was abused for achieving political goals doesn't mean it is "bad" or has to do anything with politics.

Yes and no, as historically religions have always been mixed with politics.

I fear no god ,but religeous people scare the s**t out of me.

I opinion on that that religion is mostly used as a tool to control the people so ofcourse politics is going to use that to control the people.

As for religious without politics I that it makes people give a good feeling ( which I think you prefer here ). I often compare that to drugs that make you feel good because it makes you feel good but it is not the reality and it is bad for you.

Don't forget religeon has created some good things. I believe the 10 commandments is the glue that keeps society together from thinking its wrong to go fuck/rape your neighbours wife, go break into someones house or shop and steal or go murder someone because they upset you.

A person can believe in what ever they want, as long as they are not killing people.

Originally posted by Joronamo
Don't forget religeon has created some good things. I believe the 10 commandments is the glue that keeps society together from thinking its wrong to go fuck/rape your neighbours wife, go break into someones house or shop and steal or go murder someone because they upset you.

A person can believe in what ever they want, as long as they are not killing people.

With all due respect, this is incorrect.

By the time something was written about the 10 Commandments, there were already plenty of civilizations around. In year 0 Jesus was borne on Roman occupied land, the Egyptian were not too far (and wonder why most of religions are based on the cult of the Sun god Ra), Greeks were in good shapes and China was quite nicely shaped as well. All of these people had plenty of laws already.

Religion itself sets rules in the beginning as a moral guide, as laws, in order to have a decent living, so just how any other code would ask you not to kill, the Bible and a few other so called holy books did the same.

Think of the Coran and the famous rules about not eating pork and not drinking alcohol. Why d'you think that such a religion went well in the mid of desertic regions that pass the 50º, while in colder regions were thinking of Valhalla and drinking themselves into stupor?
I can tell you that I've lived in the desert (Egypt and Tunisia), you don't want to have fat meat or some wine in that heat.
Was not as some god wanted you so, was because some leader thought it wise, and people tend to believe you faster if you say that an invisible man in the sky has told you so.

Also, the commandments don't exactly says "don't rape your neighbours wife", they say "You shall not commit adultery." Honestly, one of the commandments I've had the most pleasure violating

Too close, by the Exodus one of the commandments is:
You shall tear down their altars, break their pillars, and cut down their sacred poles, for you shall worship no other god, because the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

Shall we go to war right now? I love the smell of napalm the morning.

Meh... for someone who didnt want to get involved, I'm writing some awesome walls o' text

Originally posted by Joronamo
Don't forget religeon has created some good things. I believe the 10 commandments is the glue that keeps society together from thinking its wrong to go fuck/rape your neighbours wife, go break into someones house or shop and steal or go murder someone because they upset you.

A person can believe in what ever they want, as long as they are not killing people.

well this has the bible to say about rape

(Judges 21:10-24 NLT)

So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.

The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."

Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.

(Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)

They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

(Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

(Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

(Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)

If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.

(2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB)

Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.'

Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." Nathan answered David: "The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die."

(Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)

"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."

(Judges 5:30 NAB)

They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera's spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil. (Judges 5:30 NAB)

(Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

(Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)

Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city. (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)

Originally posted by degre
I can tell you that I've lived in the desert (Egypt and Tunisia), you don't want to have fat meat or some wine in that heat.

Actually the pork thingy was implemented because pork was easily tainted. The pigs back then suffered from a parasite, not sure which worm it was exactly, but it was pretty nasty. Islam treats it in a pretty cool way though.

chapter 2 - verse 173 Al-Baqara

He has forbidden you only the Maitah (dead animals), and blood, and the flesh of swine, and that which is slaughtered as a sacrifice for others than God (or has been slaughtered for idols, on which God's name has not been mentioned while slaughtering). But if one is forced by necessity, without willful disobedience, nor transgressing due limits, then there is no sin on him. Truly, God is oft-forgiving most merciful.

Originally posted by degre
Shall we go to war right now? I love the smell of napalm the morning.

How about we all gather for a friendly match of MW2, and the winner gets to pick this forum's religion for a month? Everyone's welcome, except console players and emos.

Originally posted by Berzerger
How about we all gather for a friendly match of MW2, and the winner gets to pick this forum's religion for a month? Everyone's welcome, except console players and emos.

... I may still be playing on $1.20 SnGs but I will destroy you all at MW2.
Like. Seriously.

Also, religion is lol. I went through catholic education and only really became an atheist when they tried to explain "Theodicy" (the defense of god in the face of evil and suffering) to me. It was the most epic fail attempt at logic I had ever seen, and I knew then and there that I couldn't continue being religious.
Theodicy, in my mind, is comparable to putting your opponent on KK+ before the flop and then trying to bluff him off the river because you think 72o is in his range.

Yes and no, as historically religions have always been mixed with politics.

I opinion on that that religion is mostly used as a tool to control the people so ofcourse politics is going to use that to control the people.

Everything is mixed with politics, science is abused for political purposes too, the point is you can't blame mass media because it's mainly used for manipulating and controlling people. Mass media itself is a great invention, cool stuff.Same for religion.

Originally posted by Berzerger

Originally posted by degre
I can tell you that I've lived in the desert (Egypt and Tunisia), you don't want to have fat meat or some wine in that heat.

Actually the pork thingy was implemented because pork was easily tainted. The pigs back then suffered from a parasite, not sure which worm it was exactly, but it was pretty nasty. Islam treats it in a pretty cool way though.

chapter 2 - verse 173 Al-Baqara

He has forbidden you only the Maitah (dead animals), and blood, and the flesh of swine, and that which is slaughtered as a sacrifice for others than God (or has been slaughtered for idols, on which God's name has not been mentioned while slaughtering). But if one is forced by necessity, without willful disobedience, nor transgressing due limits, then there is no sin on him. Truly, God is oft-forgiving most merciful.

Originally posted by degre
Shall we go to war right now? I love the smell of napalm the morning.

How about we all gather for a friendly match of MW2, and the winner gets to pick this forum's religion for a month? Everyone's welcome, except console players and emos.

Thanks for the Islam point, I've studied that stuff years ago and I don't really remember much nowadays. Stopped with the holy books some 7 or 8 years ago...

Anyway, like the second option, too bad I don't play that game, but thanks the same for the offer

Apparently, the poker mindset is much like the mindset of let say a Christian. Because Jesus teaches people not to be result oriented, just live by the love of god, do good deeds in your life be compassionate (so on) and don't care about the results because if you've been a good Christian God will find a way to take care of you. Yes bad things may happen to you in your life but since you can't possibly know God's plan the best you can do is ignore the results and keep on being good and eventually you will get rewarded.

Now in this picture if you replace God with Probability theory, God's plan with variance and being good with making EV decisions and BRM you got yourself a poker theory.

Being result oriented was the strongest weapon of science against religions, people could not see the results of their good deeds and eventually began to turn away from religion.
Nowadays everybody is result oriented(maybe back then was the same dunno) man and results are the same, you are what your results are. In poker too if you made a lot of money - you're good player otherwise you suck. It's a bit funny...