GGnetwork stole 5k$

I think it's very important that you try and pressure GG Network into writing out and publishing more specific rules that they enforce along with penalties.
Especially actually taking balance off the player feels like a big nono to me, not allowing someone to play should be enough and within full rights of the operator.

I understand that they keep it vague so that they can punish things that haven't been thought off/ have more flexibility, but it's hard for us Coaches to actively recommend the site when people can get kicked, even money taken away from them for not very clear reasons with a vague set of rules.

And I really like the fun-player friendly direction the site is moving towards otherwise,and never had issues after months of playing there

Does this work the other way around too? Do weak players have to play against someone who they know is a better player and will just take their money? If recreational player refuses to play against someone he knows is a regular, then he is doing exactly the same thing. He is accepting action only when other recreational players join him.

I can tell you that if I open an empty table and someone I know is at least as good as me joins, I'm not going to play against him. Poker is a game of skill where we all try to have an edge, and that is definitely part of the game. With high rake it makes 0 sense for me to try battle with another decent regular.

If you want to avoid bumhunting there are several things you can do. You can limit the ability to manually table select or you can make the tables totally anonymous. Banning players because they try not to lose money is totally unreasonable and makes me angry.

That didn’t exactly answer my question.

Am I allowed to color code players according to their skill level?

Am I allowed to try and play against the less skilled players, as an example when there are two tables to choose from and I always choose the one with the ”fishes”?

Am I allowed to sitout if I estimate that the table is -EV for me (as an example a table full of good players, due to high rake)?

Thank you all for the input, we will enquire with GGNetwork if they will change their policies and wordings. In the meantime, GGNet's security team can be reached at security@ggnetwork.com for exact clarification to colour coding, table selection and sitting out.

Changing the wording... The problem is that the network has the audacity to keep the money. If the network decides that they don't want to continue the relationship with their clients it's their right. But then also pay back the balance. It's a balance and not a collateral. Being prosecutor, judge and executioner - speechless.

They said they pay back his money to the players he "exploited" and not keeping them.

With that being said, what about the rake generated in all the pots he exploited the weak players in? Does the room get to keep the rake, even though they are trying to make it as though those hands didnt happen?

And what about players that try to follow my extremely genius pro tip of shoving every hand preflop (stradling all in), knowing they will get back the money they lost because every player will want to play at those tables with them, which basically makes it a freeroll for the stradler? Doesnt that sound like an oportunistic exploit of the rules/situation? How would you tell the professional straddlers from the recreational straddlers?

Originally posted by la55i
If you want to avoid bumhunting there are several things you can do. You can limit the ability to manually table select or you can make the tables totally anonymous. Banning players because they try not to lose money is totally unreasonable and makes me angry.

Yes, exactly. The improvement of the cash game seating mechanism of the lobby, making all the 'poker ethics' rules enforceable in real time by the server software instead of giving the security department the right to make case-by-case hindsight judgments on whether a player's way of using the lobby and the sitout function was ethical, is a task that will consume some programmer workforce, but it's totally necessary if the network wants to become known for its integrity.

Wow. I got a reply from ggnetwork security, after I requested it the second time.

”However, what we can inform you is your request can be regarded as violation 'Bum Hunting and Predatory Behavior' of our policy.”

Those three guestions can be found above, and to me they are normal poker playing where the aim is to make money.

I don’t know what to think about it.

Wait, what??
Ofc you should be allowed to tag weaker players, why the hell there is a note taking and color coding system if it is considered bumhunting
And when I played on GGNetwork I always tried to choose a table that has most fish, that is totally normal...

I guess I'm lucky because I managed to withdraw my bankroll before it got confiscated.

Originally posted by Kyyberi
Wow. I got a reply from ggnetwork security, after I requested it the second time.

”However, what we can inform you is your request can be regarded as violation 'Bum Hunting and Predatory Behavior' of our policy.”

Those three guestions can be found above, and to me they are normal poker playing where the aim is to make money.

I don’t know what to think about it.

I guess that they meant that the behaviour in your 3rd question is a violation of clause 12 of the Security & Ecology Agreement.

12. BLOCKING TABLES

Blocking tables includes, without limitation, where a player, at any time, sit out at the poker tables with the intention of not playing or preventing others from sitting. If a player is suspected of blocking tables, GGNetwork shall warn the player against such activity. GGNetwork reserves the right, in its sole discretion, to suspend the player for 30 days if repeated breach occurs.

Note that it doesn't matter how weak or strong your opponents are. You're supposed not to sit out for too long at any full table, because this would be an attempt to prevent any other player from sitting in, while players generally prefer to sit onto full tables.

If someone joins a waitlist to your table and you've been sitting out for too long (for more than half of the allowed time, I guess), then you'll removed from the table if I'm not mistaken. That's actually one of my favourite ways of getting seats - whenever I see a reg sitting out in a good seat at a full table, I join the waitlist and instantly have them booted from the table and get sat in myself. However, not any recreational customer is experienced enough to know that they can get a seat this way without having to actually wait, perhaps that's why clause 12 is in place.

I refuse to believe that the behaviours in your first 2 questions are illegal.

My colour coding doesn't correspond to skill levels directly, it's rather about certain relevant habits of a player, and I think it will be hard to prove that it's based on skill levels.

With regard to table selection, if the network wants it to be totally random, then why doesn't it just remove the 'Table View' altogether, so that the 'Group View' be the only way to enter the game?

By sitting out I ment leaving the table and changing it to a better one. Hard thing is to get a clear answer from the security team.

Originally posted by Natural8Rep
Hello,

We know the directive of GGNetwork is as follow:

"In general, players are expected to be seated with the purpose of playing. It is acceptable to be seated and occasionally deny action in certain circumstances, such as being seated to help start a new ring game, but not willing to play heads-up. It is not acceptable to remain seated out at a table (especially an active one) waiting for one of only a few preferred opponents to arrive to play in; in other words, it is not acceptable to target specific players. In general, seated players are expected to accept action much more often than they refuse it. Failure to abide by these rules will result in the permanent suspension of playing privileges. These rules are applied to all games of our network. The actions of your play showed that you did not follow these rules, violating the rules of GGNetwork, and as such we must take strict measures."

That is the network's standard reply to bumhunting, of which the player will be given a final warning.

According to this description I did not bumhunt
And anyone who played/railed nl1k & 2k can confirm I was the least bumhunty player of all

So if I got banned and my money stolen, it could happen to everyone who is winning, right?

As I asked more specific reply, this is what I got. I really hate when they can't give clear answers to my questions. Probably because they don't want to say anything that might limit their possible actions in the future.

"As we have mentioned, what we can inform you is your request can be regarded as violation 'Bum Hunting and Predatory Behavior' of our policy. If a player move from a table to other table in common-sense point of view, it is not considered as violation of the rules. But we would like to inform you that moving tables to avoid playing against specific players or moving tables to target specific players can be regarded as acts of bum hunting. We would like to inform you that the Security team will not take measures unless you violate our policy regards to your playing. You will be able to read our Security and Ecology Agreement at http://www.ggnetwork.com/security-and-ecology-agreement. "

They keep referring to that link (agreement), but behind that link there is the one-phrase statement that perdatory behaviour is not tolerated.

If I understand that reply correctly, you are not allowed to table select for weaker opponents, nor leave the table if it's full of regs. Unless stated otherwise, most of us can be banned and money taken. I might assume that probability is low, unless someone decides to report you. Until GG representative gives me green light to table select, I can't recommend playing at their network nor can I play N8 at my streams.

I was thinking about adding a GGnetwork, but don't think I will as I love table selection <3.

And I am with lemon on this, they can close your account but they cannot take all your money, especially as not all money is made by predatory behavior

We agree its hard, as an operator we have been trying as well to get a clear and concise explanation re bumhunting specifically.

It is also in our opinion that in order to prevent the OP's case from happening again, once a player has received the first warning for bumhunting, the said player should cease to play cash games. This would not give room to the network to send the gg email.

As far as I understood, he got an email saying that he should stop ”predatpry behaviour”, not stop playing completely.

I just wonder that if table selecting is not allowed, why there is the possibility to select your table and seat?

If GG network doesn’t want +EV players, then just say it. But then it’s controversial that N8 has professional players under contract, as they all are having ”predatory behaviour” every time they are playing.

I think the best solution would be if GG could give some case examples what is allowed and what is not. Now the wording is too unclear and their security department just can’t say anything that makes sense. At the moment the risk is too high, and their customer support in this matter is way beyond acceptable.

Given that I didn't bumhunt/sit out/whatever the thing that they don't want you to do is win.
I am also pretty confident, that they just go through the people with the highest winrate/winnings and warn/ban them. This way they can keep some extra $$$.

For site it doesn't really matter who wins, as long as the games are running.

Originally posted by Kyyberi
For site it doesn't really matter who wins, as long as the games are running.

This has been a topic for discussion for many years, prompting the founder of Pokerstrategy to write blog posts in 2011-12 arguing against the punishment of winning players that some sites were already doing at that time.

Yeah. In some ways, winning players make recreationals lose their money a bit sooner. But on the other hand, they keep games running. Of course if no one cashes out any money from the site, they win more. But if they force all regs away, the games probably die.