Coaching: Sit and Go [Expert] with Unam

WELL DONE! Was very very much fun! Thanks

What are your ranges there? I have 48.7% for the BU, coldcall of 27.9% for the SB and 2.6% call to a push and you giving that 22+ A3+ A2s+ K9+ K8s+ QTs+

A bit loose or do you have significant other ranges?

Very nice coaching. Thx a lot and gratz

A6o > ATo > AKo pf ♦
gratz zum tour win

Here is the HH you asked me for, we can discuss it next week if you want to.

PokerStars Game #35540026601: Tournament #213821783, $33+$3 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XVIII (2500/5000) - 2009/11/19 0:22:12 CET [2009/11/18 18:22:12 ET]
Table '213821783 11' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: mainstreet26 (25460 in chips)
Seat 2: The Rounderr (117758 in chips)
Seat 9: Unam1337 (126782 in chips)
mainstreet26: posts the ante 500
The Rounderr: posts the ante 500
Unam1337: posts the ante 500
The Rounderr: posts small blind 2500
Unam1337: posts big blind 5000
HOLE CARDS
Dealt to Unam1337 [Ad 7c]
mainstreet26: raises 19960 to 24960 and is all-in
The Rounderr: calls 22460
Unam1337: raises 101322 to 126282 and is all-in
The Rounderr: folds
Uncalled bet (101322) returned to Unam1337
FLOP [8h 9c 2c]
TURN [8h 9c 2c] [5h]
RIVER [8h 9c 2c 5h] [5c]
SHOW DOWN
Unam1337: shows [Ad 7c] (a pair of Fives)
mainstreet26: shows [9d 8d] (two pair, Nines and Eights)
mainstreet26 collected 76380 from pot
SUMMARY
Total pot 76380 | Rake 0
Board [8h 9c 2c 5h 5c]
Seat 1: mainstreet26 (button) showed [9d 8d] and won (76380) with two pair, Nines and Eights
Seat 2: The Rounderr (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: Unam1337 (big blind) showed [Ad 7c] and lost with a pair of Fives

I actually posted this hand on Finnish STT hand evaluation boards as well for a second opinion.

But thank you, it was a very good learning experience upon how to make hands hold.

Well, the finnish guys would have isolated with Q6o according to what Lee Nelson says about you in the intro

I think our STT coach might just do it. He's a pretty creepy guy...

@ Jim
Would like to hear different opinions on that, but why the STT and not the MTT forum?

Originally posted by amayaner
Well, the finnish guys would have isolated with Q6o according to what Lee Nelson says about you in the intro

Dont you think a session review would make sense? I think its great because there are little 180 MTT reviews.

Okay, I should have put it on the MTT section, but since they are sit and goes, I put them into the SNG section. Which somehow abbreviates to STT in my mind. Go figure.

At any rate, typohh crunched some numbers and said that he would have just called, simply because the perceived edge of a shove would have been so small and the potential harm so big that it's not simply worth the effort.

The calculations are here: http://fi.pokerstrategy.com/forum/thread.php?postid=58474#post58474

I can translate them for you, unless he wants to drop by to do that himself.

Ill do a rough translation of what I wrote on the finnish board...

The optimal play for BU and SB should be something along the lines of 30% shove from BU and maybe a bit less than 25% call from SB. But lets assume BU is shoving wide, say 60%, basically anything with 1 highcard or somewhat connected. And lets assume SB calling it with 45% range, which should be somewhat reasonable when compared to assumed BU shove. Lets further assume that SB shoves to isolate with any hand stronger than A7o, which is basically top 15% of the hands. That leaves SB with a range of 15% - 45% and hero doesnt have to worry about getting called when he shoves.

Now as for whats the outcome for different scenarios..

If hero wins the stacks would be..

0, 92298, 177702, resulting in $1594.89 equity for hero..

If SB wins the stacks would be..

0, 168678, 101322, resulting in $1425.16 equity for hero..

If BU wins the stacks would be..

76380, 92298, 101322, resulting in $1284.26 equity for hero..

If hero only calls, and checks it down, hero wins 37% of the time, SB wins 30% of the time and BU wins 33% of the time, so heros equity for a call would be..

( 37% * 1594.89 ) + ( 30% * 1425.16 ) + ( 33% * 1284.26 ) = $1441.46.

If hero shoves and SB folds, hero wins 55% of the time, and BU wins 45% of the time, so heros equity for a shove is..

( 55% * 1594.89 ) + ( 45% * 1284.26 ) = $1455.10.

Now in this situation, where both SB and BU plays incorrectly (to the advantage of our hero) and hero has perfect read on SB (SB will never call the over shove) hero gains +0.9% in equity compared to the call. However deviate from this optimal scenario and the outcome is almost inevitably worse for a shove than a call. If there even the slightest risk that SB is flatting with a monster or BU is shoving tighter, then a call is definately better than a shove here.

LOL, played a seesion recently and heard it on the smoothjazz stream:

http://www.unamprod.com/U-Nam_/Home.html

Some advocated folding on the finnish board so I decided to do the math on it as well. Here are the stacks and equity if hero folds and BU wins, and respectively for SB winning.

56420, 92298, 121282 = $1370.10

0, 148718, 121282 = $1469.52

And just to show folding doesnt make sense here, assuming the "loose" play by villains we used in the earlier calculations, BU wins 51% of the time and SB 49% of the time.

( 51% * $1370.10 ) + ( 49% * $1469.52 ) = $1418.82

As we can see, hero is clearly worse of folding than either calling or shoving. Hero stack would be worth $1418.82 if hero folds and $1441.46 if hero calls. Shoving being the best option assuming SB never overcalls.

--------------------

Finally, assuming somewhat correct play by both BU and SB, ie 30% range and 25% range. Folding results in..

If hero folds, SB wins 48% and BB 52% of the time, so the equity for hero is..

( 48% * $1370.10 ) + ( 52% * $1469.52 ) = $1421.80

As for hero calling, SB wins 37%, BB wins 38% and hero wins 25% of the time, so the equity would be..

( 37% * $1284.26 ) + ( 38% * $1425.16 ) + ( 25% * $1594.89 ) = $1415.46

So fold is somewhat better than a call, but not much of a difference (0.4%). But what about shoving in this scenario? If SB overcalls, hero is in big trouble obviously so lets just assume SB folds his entire range (including AA). BU wins 53.5% of the time and hero wins 46.5% of the time.

( 53.5% * $1284.26 ) + ( 46.5% * $1594.89 ) = $1428.70

It turns out I was wrong in my earlier guess, that call is better than a shove if BU plays tighter (and SB always folds to the shove).

-----------------------

The final result is..

If BU and SB play correctly...

shove $1428.70 - assumes SB folds AA to overshove.
fold $1421.80
call $1415.46

If BU and SB play loose...

shove $1455.10
call $1441.46
fold $1418.82

Ofcourse, if there is even the slightest risk that SB will overcall shove is by far the worse option. Dont feel like doing the math because it seems to obvious.

As for calling or folding, it depends on the play style of BU and SB which is better. But since the potential mistake when calling is by far worse than by folding I would definately call rather then fold without a very precise read on both SB and BU playstyle. And since there is so little to gain by shoving and so much to lose I would abstain from shoving even if its the best choice by a small margin under ideal circumstances.

23/12/09. T'was a nice coaching, mostly because it was so fun. The contest for the coaching gave it a lot of life and so made it more stimulating. I think that kind of initiative might bring players to coachings so it's a good possibility to think of doing that kind of "in-training offers" more often, thus making people attend coaching more and elevating the level of the community.

EDIT: too bad I can't run teamviewer, or else I'd be enjoying my first public private coaching, on that note =).

Thanks for another detailed coaching!
I cannot improve my play anywhere better than here!
It is also fun when we do some "sidegames" like: type in which country you are from ^^

Looking forward to next week ;-)

Regarding that problem we discussed in the end of the coaching I put that hand into the Equiltor.
I remembered the following facts:
- 4 handed
- Blinds: 100/200 (not sure about ante)
- The guy range we were talking about sat in CO and
- he raised to 500
- you pushed with TT from BU
- SB/BB folds
- He thought for a short while and called with AJs

And now the main question:
What is his openbet range and with what range can we push to his bet?

I personally had the assumption that he was a tight player to get ITM. To get ITM means to fold a lot and to play tight which stands in contradiction to his call with AJs which was more loose than tight. That is correct, but I claim that tight players like him tries to get shorter stacked players out of the tournament. In this cases their own chipstacks do not get harmed a lot. This is just my theorie, let's do some maths:

If I was Unam I was pushing with 88+/AJs+
Unam said that his pushing range would be 22+/A8s+

I don't have the SNG Wizzard which should be best for that problem but I typed everything into the Equilator where I am not sure if i did that correctly because between mine and Unam's range are nearly 50% of our equity (Enumerate)! The equity difference which is calculated by Monte Carlo is nearly 7% sounds more likely.

The reason why I keep picking on that issue is easy :-)
I am very often confronted and stuck in such a situation and I have always problems the figure out what is my opponents bet/call/raise-range and what is my range for the certain situations.

I know this is not the correct topic to discuss such a hand but I once again say thank you Unam for making me think about poker and improving my play!

very good coaching had a lot to learn, great coaching skills, good attitude keep up the good work

Visited this coaching for the first time and it was hilarious

Good coaching, dedicated, loved it!

great coaching, very funny comments sometimes, and when u whisper for some cards when u r behind, dont know, but its just so funny for me... loved ur coaching, cant wait for next week...