How to play overpair?

    • Meda1985
      Meda1985
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.01.2011 Posts: 233
      I have one question for more experienced players?
      Maybe it's a stupid one, but I think it is not! And as someone very smart once said, there is no stupid questions, just stupid answers! :)

      Note that I'm at micro-stakes!
      When I'm with AK, QQ, JJ or TT I raise and if I'm re-raised and it's not a short-stacker or some "donk" I know that likes to negreanu around the table :) I just call, because I don't want to risk my whole stack for those great, but not premium hands (QQ might be premium, but I've been known to lose much all-ins with it). So, let's leave Anna Kournikova outside of this discussion and talk about this high pairs! If I hit trips, or there is an over-card on the board I know what to do! :) But what if I just have an over-pair? I tend to check-raise, but if villain goes all-in, WHAT TO DO THEN??? I usually fold! Is that a proper way to play??? I'm afraid I've been folding to many better hands (and I'm not a rock, far from it)! And, I repeat, I don't have to much knowledge of the villain. Or, when I know him for a not to good of a player, not those maniacs, just not very good players...

      Thank you very much, your help will be extremely appreciated!!!
  • 42 replies
    • DrDunne
      DrDunne
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.12.2010 Posts: 3,378
      hmm it seems that check raising those hands on the flop would cost you a hell of a lot if you just fold to a shove. given that it's a 3bet pot i think it's going to happen very often when you check raise. you're just isolating yourself against monsters. think what is he doing it with? if you have QQ on a T74r board, what do you think he is going all in with? most likely not JJ.... most likely TTT/KK/AA (considering you have the QQ). i think you are spewing money by check/raise folding. why do you check raise? to create fold equity? probably do against his air range but how often does someone have air in 3bet pot :D

      If you have an overpair no need to check raise. people generally aren't willing to stack off postflop with just TPTK.. so do you beat this? if so, do you beat such a strong range? a lot of the time no. an overpair is just a pair after all. even if its AA, AA is only really good preflop. once the flop is out im sure equity greatly decreases.

      i think you should stop check/raising - only really do that if a) you have a monster AND want to get AI. or b) you are very likely to get a fold from villain. but it is rare to ever know that much at the limits we play. check/raise for value. i think you should just play them bet/fold - maybe bet/call depending on your reads. hope that helps!
    • dooleslovs
      dooleslovs
      Diamond
      Joined: 17.02.2011 Posts: 485
      it is not good to bluff with over pair. why you raise? you should only raise with overpair when you are willng to go broke, if no go for pot control and call down. and abaut pre flop, you have alot of FE w AK, people will fold alot EQ vs your 3bets and 4bets. And you have 2 blockers so it is much more unlikely to be agaisnt KK and AA with AK compered to QQ, so its not good play to flat AK in most cases PF. and if you get a 3bet and have JJ TT its never a good idea to flat OOP. You could falt IP against someone who is defending blind very agro, but not against MP or CO 3bet. And poker is not about risking stacks its about playing against ranges of your opponents, it will be EV+ to fold QQ against NIT who 3bets your UTG raise from MP and it will be EV+ to 4bet with A2 against LAGs 3bet CO v BU. So there is no one answer to What to do then? You should know what to do before you do something in first place :)
    • Paakjis
      Paakjis
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.07.2009 Posts: 141
      Just keep it simple as possible in micros and wtf is check-raised, delete check button from your poker client.
    • Meda1985
      Meda1985
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.01.2011 Posts: 233
      Originally posted by Paakjis
      Just keep it simple as possible in micros and wtf is check-raised, delete check button from your poker client.
      I don't want to donkbet!
    • Paakjis
      Paakjis
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.07.2009 Posts: 141
      The first mistake is to call raise preflop with your premium hands, just fold or 3bet villain and bet on the flop
    • DrDunne
      DrDunne
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      Joined: 29.12.2010 Posts: 3,378
      Originally posted by Paakjis
      The first mistake is to call raise preflop with your premium hands, just fold or 3bet villain and bet on the flop
      +1
    • Meda1985
      Meda1985
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.01.2011 Posts: 233
      Originally posted by Paakjis
      The first mistake is to call raise preflop with your premium hands, just fold or 3bet villain and bet on the flop
      I don't call with premium hands! I 3bet! QQ, AK, JJ and TT are not premium hands!
    • Meda1985
      Meda1985
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.01.2011 Posts: 233
      Originally posted by DrDunne
      hmm it seems that check raising those hands on the flop would cost you a hell of a lot if you just fold to a shove. given that it's a 3bet pot i think it's going to happen very often when you check raise. you're just isolating yourself against monsters. think what is he doing it with? if you have QQ on a T74r board, what do you think he is going all in with? most likely not JJ.... most likely TTT/KK/AA (considering you have the QQ). i think you are spewing money by check/raise folding. why do you check raise? to create fold equity? probably do against his air range but how often does someone have air in 3bet pot :D

      If you have an overpair no need to check raise. people generally aren't willing to stack off postflop with just TPTK.. so do you beat this? if so, do you beat such a strong range? a lot of the time no. an overpair is just a pair after all. even if its AA, AA is only really good preflop. once the flop is out im sure equity greatly decreases.

      i think you should stop check/raising - only really do that if a) you have a monster AND want to get AI. or b) you are very likely to get a fold from villain. but it is rare to ever know that much at the limits we play. check/raise for value. i think you should just play them bet/fold - maybe bet/call depending on your reads. hope that helps!
      I'll stop check-raising, but what to do pre-flop? Go all-in with QQ and hope he doesn't have KK or AA?!
    • Meda1985
      Meda1985
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.01.2011 Posts: 233
      Originally posted by dooleslovs
      it is not good to bluff with over pair. why you raise? you should only raise with overpair when you are willng to go broke, if no go for pot control and call down. and abaut pre flop, you have alot of FE w AK, people will fold alot EQ vs your 3bets and 4bets. And you have 2 blockers so it is much more unlikely to be agaisnt KK and AA with AK compered to QQ, so its not good play to flat AK in most cases PF. and if you get a 3bet and have JJ TT its never a good idea to flat OOP. You could falt IP against someone who is defending blind very agro, but not against MP or CO 3bet. And poker is not about risking stacks its about playing against ranges of your opponents, it will be EV+ to fold QQ against NIT who 3bets your UTG raise from MP and it will be EV+ to 4bet with A2 against LAGs 3bet CO v BU. So there is no one answer to What to do then? You should know what to do before you do something in first place :)
      In those situations I'm not bluffing, I'm check-raising in order to see does he have stronger hand!
    • Meda1985
      Meda1985
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.01.2011 Posts: 233
      So, nobody told me how to play those! I just get the feeling that all one is supposed to do in poker these days is to get a set and go all-in!?
      These are micro-stakes, players are doing all donk-arts! By folding to a re-raise every time you will be bluffed to many times!
    • dooleslovs
      dooleslovs
      Diamond
      Joined: 17.02.2011 Posts: 485
      if you raise and fold to reraise it is called bluff, it is very EV- to raise "For imformation". If you do not know where you stand with your hand try to go to showdown as cheaply as passible it is called way ahead way behind situations. If you have QQ on J22 board, you definatlly do not whant to raise to find out if he have KK+ or JJ. just ch/c all the way to showdown and if K or A
      hit you could find a fold.
    • DrDunne
      DrDunne
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.12.2010 Posts: 3,378
      I'll stop check-raising, but what to do pre-flop? Go all-in with QQ and hope he doesn't have KK or AA?!

      no, give it up. people don't really 3bet light. you get value from the fold equity generated when you push with QQ/AK but often you will be up against KK/AA. depends on the person you are playing - if they like to 3bet and go all in often then snap it off with QQ, but if they are a nit fold the QQ cos they will only be doing that with hands that crush you.

      Originally posted by Meda1985
      So, nobody told me how to play those! I just get the feeling that all one is supposed to do in poker these days is to get a set and go all-in!?
      These are micro-stakes, players are doing all donk-arts! By folding to a re-raise every time you will be bluffed to many times!
      pretty much.... these are what earn me the most! aside from AIpf w/AA or KK....
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,909
      LOL thread! :f_biggrin:

      The answer to your question is: it depends!

      There's no universal best way to play a hand, there's only best way given the circumstances and assumptions.
    • BObamaJr
      BObamaJr
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.01.2012 Posts: 232
      Don't listen to this raft of nits. 3-bet/flop shoving with QQ, JJ is +EV against most opponents. Against nits and TAGs it may not be but it is important to profile your villain before making a decision.

      Judge the board texture. If the flop comes 10JQ most of the time you are behind their range. However if a dryer board flips (1073) you would be ahead of their range.

      Judge the player's pre-flop tendecies. Look at their VPIP (Voluntarily put in pot (call)) and PFR (Pre-flop raise). If they are calling 3 bets and raising with a lot of hands pre-flop then there is a good chance they could have weak hand and shoving with just a top or mid pair.

      Analyse the player and make a decision based on their expected range.
    • Meda1985
      Meda1985
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.01.2011 Posts: 233
      Originally posted by dooleslovs
      if you raise and fold to reraise it is called bluff, it is very EV- to raise "For imformation". If you do not know where you stand with your hand try to go to showdown as cheaply as passible it is called way ahead way behind situations. If you have QQ on J22 board, you definatlly do not whant to raise to find out if he have KK+ or JJ. just ch/c all the way to showdown and if K or A
      hit you could find a fold.
      That's what I was asking! Than You! it's not uncommon for villains to go all-in all from a sudden... What then? And, is my pre-flop reasoning to just call re-raise OK or should I change it!? I'm really struggling with those good, hard-to-fold, hands! I know that it's just one pair, but...
      And also, putting someone on some range in micro-stakes is one of the hardest things in poker, because no matter what you put the villain on, you will most often find yourself dazzled with T3 off-suit one time to many!!!
    • Meda1985
      Meda1985
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.01.2011 Posts: 233
      Originally posted by EmanuelC16
      LOL thread! :f_biggrin:

      The answer to your question is: it depends!

      There's no universal best way to play a hand, there's only best way given the circumstances and assumptions.
      I know mate, I'm not a complete fish! :f_cool: I'm just asking for guidance!
    • EmanuelC16
      EmanuelC16
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.01.2010 Posts: 13,909
      Originally posted by Meda1985
      And also, putting someone on some range in micro-stakes is one of the hardest things in poker, because no matter what you put the villain on, you will most often find yourself dazzled with T3 off-suit one time to many!!!
      That's just inexperience in hand reading. Sure, you'll never assign them a perfect range but it will be close enough to make the best decision.
    • Meda1985
      Meda1985
      Bronze
      Joined: 26.01.2011 Posts: 233
      Originally posted by BObamaJr
      Don't listen to this raft of nits. 3-bet/flop shoving with QQ, JJ is +EV against most opponents. Against nits and TAGs it may not be but it is important to profile your villain before making a decision.

      Judge the board texture. If the flop comes 10JQ most of the time you are behind their range. However if a dryer board flips (1073) you would be ahead of their range.

      Judge the player's pre-flop tendecies. Look at their VPIP (Voluntarily put in pot (call)) and PFR (Pre-flop raise). If they are calling 3 bets and raising with a lot of hands pre-flop then there is a good chance they could have weak hand and shoving with just a top or mid pair.

      Analyse the player and make a decision based on their expected range.
      OK, this is great guidance! Thank You! Of course I do all that, but since Elephant "died" I don't have any tracker as they are expensive and I'm not a pro! :) I do make profiles of players, my notes are full! But, I was asking for a general advice when playing unknowns!
    • dooleslovs
      dooleslovs
      Diamond
      Joined: 17.02.2011 Posts: 485
      Originally posted by Meda1985
      Originally posted by dooleslovs
      if you raise and fold to reraise it is called bluff, it is very EV- to raise "For imformation". If you do not know where you stand with your hand try to go to showdown as cheaply as passible it is called way ahead way behind situations. If you have QQ on J22 board, you definatlly do not whant to raise to find out if he have KK+ or JJ. just ch/c all the way to showdown and if K or A
      hit you could find a fold.
      That's what I was asking! Than You! it's not uncommon for villains to go all-in all from a sudden... What then? And, is my pre-flop reasoning to just call re-raise OK or should I change it!? I'm really struggling with those good, hard-to-fold, hands! I know that it's just one pair, but...
      And also, putting someone on some range in micro-stakes is one of the hardest things in poker, because no matter what you put the villain on, you will most often find yourself dazzled with T3 off-suit one time to many!!!
      QQ is too strong to just flat pre in most cases, they will call you with a lot weaker hands like AQ, KQ, TT, JJ, or eaven smaller PP, you should consider flating only vs NITs EP-MP oR. Same with AK, JJ-TT is bord line you 3bet ws those who call 3bets a lot OOP or flat ws those who tend to 4bet or fold OOP.