Intuition

    • Azbers
      Azbers
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      Joined: 13.07.2008 Posts: 18
      As you might know, intuition is the ability or sense, to know the outcome of an action or situation without reasoning, tho this is a vague definition, because the view about intuition is larger, but ill refer mostly to poker.
      Intuition, by my thoghts is the result of the human subconcious, that is like an extremly performant computer(strange analogy, i guess), The subconcious is a very powerfull tool, because it 'spots' all the little details that would kill our concious mind(too many details are hard to handle by the concious human mind). So practically we see evertyhing, but we just dont realise it.I guess that the subconcious has many other abilitys that we havent figured yet, but ill try to talk more about intuition now.
      So...ever done something without realising why? ever took any decision, knew the outcome of any situation(in life and poker aswell) without knowing why? Well, i did:P I call this intuition..we all have it, but most of us use it without realising most of the time, and a few of us realise it and try to train it(-i know there are some 'energetical healers' that can 'guess' intuitively if you're ill and if u have health problems).
      Enough theory...back to poker time: it's said that talented players can sense other weakness intuitively, or can sense what we call luck(the outcome of a hand);even bad players do that, the gamblers:) it's all intuition.
      How i handle a situation...ok, my ideea is that u need to play 'reasoning poker' 90% of the time, and use math all the time, but there are 10% of the time when u need to handle tight situations, where u dont know who has the edge and what may happen, and thats when u need to use intuition.
      How to activate it...well this is a tricky part that i dont really handle too well myself;but this is my process: i close my eyes for a few seconds, and try to defocus, not to think of anything, only to 'meditate' and keep my mind clean, the suddenly i focus on the certain situation that needs my attention, and i try to concentrate 110% on it and purely focus without any thinking proccess, and then, most of the times, i take the right decision:)
      Now, i dont say allways do this..no..that would be wrong, because not allways you're intuition will be good, sometimes you're emotion will be a cloud for ure subconcious and will make u take the wrong decision...there are many little details that can distract u.
      Anyway, i hope this helps a bit and if anybody can say more about this, would be interesting a discussion, because this is something u rarely find on forums and articles.
  • 46 replies
    • bckdrflush
      bckdrflush
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      Joined: 24.06.2008 Posts: 154
      I think Intuition is a great topic. I consistently have these flashes with seemingly garbage hands preflop - it starts out sounding like a joke in my head.. all in with 97o? Then I see the full house on the board but my cards are mucked! Last night I was itching to play a 78s from the SB preflop, but chickened out to raises from middle pairs.. the feeling was strong, but my reasoning drowned it out. Of course I would have made trips and more than tripled up. I've also recently made a few huge calls to river bluffs - not by thinking it through, but more by feeling it.

      For me intuition is always there only to be clouded by reason, greed and fear. I have to believe that if my body and brain can perform milllions of processes in harmony at the same time - and my memory can compare situations much faster than I can cognize them then intuition is a very powerful tool.

      My intuition is best in the evening - my reads are better when I'm playing fewer tables - and I have to say there's something to being able to read people over the net. I don't want to get all cosmic here, but everything in the universe is connected - if not in space, then in time, when once we were all part of the same singularity. In a higher dimension maybe we're all connected, and there is an inate awareness on a super-conscious level of the collective - including the thoughts of your opponent who you are concentrating on.

      Forcing this to happen isn't possible I think - I agree that clearing your mind, taking care of your breathing - and playing poker to improve your mind body relationship will be a plus. If we are indeed guided by a higher consciousness, a superego or Id - then maybe it would be a positive thing for us to win if winning meant that we developed spiritually as well. This means when I play poker now - instead of stressing out with 4+ tables, I'm only playing two. When I notice that my breathing is shallow and tense, I try to relax and breathe deep. Winning at poker becomes an exercise for my superconscious' to better myself. It's a bargain of sorts, but it should be the same for any job ideally. If you don't grow from what you do, you're more likely to perish than thrive doing it.

      I'm also trying a few things that might sound superstitious but are firmly grounded in daoist philosophy. I highly recommend the book Chuang Tzu, which you might be able to find for free on the net. Giving up ego is a very important part of poker. After all, calling with your KK with an A or a flush on the board is very tempting - throwing them away is a blow to your ego, but not your bankroll.
    • SunWukung
      SunWukung
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      Joined: 12.03.2008 Posts: 28
      question is, if it just isn't hindsight bias or memory optimism, call it whatever you want. I mean, you forget all those times you had "itching", fold and the flop is totally dry for your hand, you basically remember only hands you'd won if played.
    • bckdrflush
      bckdrflush
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      Joined: 24.06.2008 Posts: 154
      You're probably right hindsight and reaffirmation though I don't remember getting that feeling preflop when the hand didn't hit. It doesn't happen so often, and only on very strange looking hands. I think I get more negative intuitive cues about good hands that I shouldn't play.

      Does that mean I didn't get the feeling at other times? I don't know. Of course I don't trust to go all in with 79o based on intuition alone, though I'm really thinking it would be an interesting experiment to measure. There are many many more times that I didn't get any intuitive feeling and had a logical play with a good hand, but didn't hit at all...
    • Azbers
      Azbers
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      Joined: 13.07.2008 Posts: 18
      Bckdrflush: first of all i dont say forcing it to happen, i mostly mean trying to control it, but since is something relatively untested and strange, control is very hard to achieve, since it's 'stopped' by many other factors like emotions,desires, etc.
      Sunwukung:I'd say you're actually quite wrong, sure, there will be 'exceptions that confirm the rule' but only because there are many moments when ure subconcious will be clouded by ure concious part

      Edit: i do call sometimes mostly in HU PF with really strange hands :D (6-4 suited anyone?:D ) but only when im really ahead ,otherwise i dont have the gut to risk anything
    • fun101rockets
      fun101rockets
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      Joined: 01.06.2008 Posts: 1,162
      Poker is a game of math and reads. Intuition should not play a part in your game.
    • Azbers
      Azbers
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      Joined: 13.07.2008 Posts: 18
      Let me ask you a question then(somebody that never played poker asked me the same).If everybody would play perfectly mathematically, who would win then?( since u say it's a game of 'math').Yes, i know that u will say that 90% of ppl play like crap w/e and dont know anything about math...but what i mean is that u should try to think out of the box for a second.
    • bckdrflush
      bckdrflush
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      Joined: 24.06.2008 Posts: 154
      Originally posted by fun101rockets
      Poker is a game of math and reads. Intuition should not play a part in your game.
      Intuition is mentioned in some articles on this site - was just reading this recently and thought of it.

      http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/sng/175/

      "Keep in mind, however, that there is more than just the ICM. This becomes important on particularly high buy-ins and will be addressed in further articles. Furthermore, very small stacks (less than 1BB) and very high blinds can cause errors in the ICM calculations. In these cases, trust your own intuition rather than the calculated value."

      If intuition is really only the weighted sum of instantaneous calculations, comparisons and estimates - it must occur much faster than the actual conscious thought process. If we arrive at the same conclusion either way, intuition is an advantage - especially with the time constraints of online poker w. multitables!
    • xylere
      xylere
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      Joined: 27.05.2007 Posts: 2,939
      Originally posted by fun101rockets
      Poker is a game of math and reads.
      poker is a form of art) you just haven't felt it yet)

      i remember a funny quote by one russian cash pro, smthing like

      NL 10-600 - learning how to beat fish
      NL 600-1k - learning how to beat regulars
      NL 1k+ learning how to play poker :D
    • vldmrs
      vldmrs
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      Joined: 24.06.2008 Posts: 23
      my intuition is wrong, when i am droping cards , cards getting on the table, when i going with good cards preflops till the turn accepting big rises, i loose. :)
    • Azbers
      Azbers
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      Joined: 13.07.2008 Posts: 18
      I think it's a matter of concentration, u must ignore everything else when you're playing poker, and only focus on poker, 120%, i mean u shouldnt pay any attention to anything else and u should be relaxed and comfortable
    • fun101rockets
      fun101rockets
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      Joined: 01.06.2008 Posts: 1,162
      Originally posted by Azbers
      Let me ask you a question then(somebody that never played poker asked me the same).If everybody would play perfectly mathematically, who would win then?( since u say it's a game of 'math').Yes, i know that u will say that 90% of ppl play like crap w/e and dont know anything about math...but what i mean is that u should try to think out of the box for a second.
      Poker is not 100 percent math. Reads are also important. If "everybody would play perfectly mathematically," the player with the best reads on his opponents would win in the long term. In the short term luck is a major factor on anybody's results.

      xylere: I am still playing on the low limits (NL and FL). You may be right about the higher limits.
    • arjun2001
      arjun2001
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      Joined: 28.03.2008 Posts: 352
      Whenever I have flush draw, I always think I am gonna hit it... so I don't trust my intuition too much right now. But every now and then you can call bluffs or make the occasional limp with 86s.
    • Foxxxen
      Foxxxen
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      Joined: 04.12.2007 Posts: 3,428
      I think intuition is an important part of poker. There is more to the game than just consious math and reads, like someone suggested. That is not to say though, that intuition is some kind of precognition and we should go allin preflop with 97o, like someone else suggested.

      I agree with the thread starter, that intuition is the subconcious processing of information that operates at a greater clock frequency than our concious reasoning, and processing information that we would not have time to do conciously. Little things like timing tells are things that I think our intuition is better at processing than our concious mind. At live poker, small body language shifts and breathing patterns that we would not normally notice, can be processed by our subconcious and give a sense of intuition.

      In conclusion, math/intuition is exactly 89.345%/10.655% towards a good solid game.
    • Azbers
      Azbers
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      Joined: 13.07.2008 Posts: 18
      I liked the procentages :D :D :D
    • ilikepie
      ilikepie
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      Joined: 18.10.2007 Posts: 53
      I don't believe in intuition, it's all about skill! lol
    • finchybg
      finchybg
      Bronze
      Joined: 16.12.2007 Posts: 910
      Known players:
      UTG:
      $100.65
      Hero:
      $95.50
      BB:
      $100.00

      Texas Hold'em NL100 (10 handed)
      Hand recorder used for this poker hand: Ongame Hand Converter v0.2.5 by Life is a Bug.

      Preflop: Hero is SB with A:diamond: , K:spade:
      UTG raises to $5.00, 7 folds, Hero raises to $15.50, BB folds, UTG calls $10.50.

      Flop: ($32.00) 7:diamond: , 7:club: , 7:heart: (0 players)
      Hero bets $17.50, UTG calls $17.50.

      Turn: ($67.00) J:spade: (0 players)
      Hero checks, UTG bets $25.00, Hero calls $25.00.

      River: ($117.00) 9:club: (0 players)
      Hero checks, UTG bets $42.65 (All-in), Hero calls $37.50 (All-in).

      Final Pot: $197.15

      Results follow (highlight to see):
      UTG shows [ KD, 6C ]
      Hero shows [ AD, KS ]
      UTG wins $0.00 USD.
      Hero wins $0.00 USD.



      A fine example :)
      I have some more, but can't find them because I have many hands in the database. Intuition is a good thing, but sometimes can be against you - the fact that you once won a big pot with ace high, doesn't mean that you will win such very often.

      Generally, I try not to overtrust my intuition - I mean, except the example I gave, I rarely invest stacks just on intuition. But yes, I often raise flop/turn if I feel like the opponent is on air - as long as I don't invest a BIG part of my stack. I don't want to be pot commited just because of intuition.
    • sidewalker
      sidewalker
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      Joined: 25.07.2008 Posts: 1,545
      Nice thread, intuition blew my bankroll ~5 times the past month..
    • bckdrflush
      bckdrflush
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      Joined: 24.06.2008 Posts: 154
      Originally posted by sidewalker
      Nice thread, intuition blew my bankroll ~5 times the past month..
      maybe you could try this..

    • sidewalker
      sidewalker
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      Joined: 25.07.2008 Posts: 1,545
      haha, omg 2.19 in and im laughing my ass off. Thou, mostly its just temporary tilts i got that mess up my play.