Discussion Thread: Chip Value

    • Boomer2k10
      Boomer2k10
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.09.2010 Posts: 2,551
      Chip value

      In this module you will see...
      • ...what is the real value of chips in SNGs
      • ...what is the ICM and how it may help you to evaluate your stack
      • ...how to use the ICM when it comes to evaluating decisions
      • ...what is the risk premium concept and how to use it

      Lesson The principle of diminishing chip value

      Article
      Quiz
      Video

      Lesson The Fundamentals of the Independent Chip Model

      Article
      Quiz
      Video

      Lesson Application of the ICM

      Article
      Quiz
      Video

      Lesson The Risk Premium Concept

      Article
      Quiz
      Video
  • 14 replies
    • GregorKocur
      GregorKocur
      Silver
      Joined: 30.10.2007 Posts: 12
      rly nice , thanks for this one! it help alot to understand the chips
    • gaaish
      gaaish
      Bronze
      Joined: 23.02.2010 Posts: 1,258
      You're very welcome, feel free to ask any questions you might have :)
    • r1sk4v3rs10n
      r1sk4v3rs10n
      Silver
      Joined: 25.02.2011 Posts: 35
      Whoever is behind those videos in tradimo.com and here in pokerstrategy is very good, very didactic.
    • Jaquare
      Jaquare
      Basic
      Joined: 23.04.2014 Posts: 36
      Does anyone knows if a similar program as ICM explorer exist on poker tracker 4?

      Regards,

      Jaquare
    • BArGaInChem
      BArGaInChem
      Basic
      Joined: 26.06.2014 Posts: 21
      In the example from "Chip Value (3): Application of the ICM" where Hero is in SB with 32o:
      Folding is a mistake costing Hero $1.42. Who are these "dead money" being leaked to? I would make sense to me if it was spread out over the remaining players around the table, but if so, is it spread evenly or does stack stack size equity again come into play here?

      Thank you for a great read.
    • VorpalF2F
      VorpalF2F
      Super Moderator
      Super Moderator
      Joined: 02.09.2010 Posts: 9,109
      Originally posted by BArGaInChem
      In the example from "Chip Value (3): Application of the ICM" where Hero is in SB with 32o:
      Folding is a mistake costing Hero $1.42. Who are these "dead money" being leaked to? I would make sense to me if it was spread out over the remaining players around the table, but if so, is it spread evenly or does stack stack size equity again come into play here?

      Thank you for a great read.
      Hi, BArGaInChem...
      Welcome to PokerStrategy.com !

      To answer the bolded question:
      The $1.42 he "loses" if he folds, does not get lost immediately.
      In the scenario given, he misses the opportunity to win it.

      The ICM (Independent Chip Model) assigns a $ value to each chip in your stack based on your overall probability of winning. By not pushing, he lowers his overall probability of winning by $1.42 according to the calculations in the article.

      If you like you could put that another way and say that the probability of the other players winning increased by that same amount.

      May I suggest that you take a moment to introduce yourself. Other members may be interested in who you are, where you're from, what games & limits you play.

      Best of luck,
      --VS
    • BArGaInChem
      BArGaInChem
      Basic
      Joined: 26.06.2014 Posts: 21
      Thank you for the answer. What I was looking for it what you say about the probability of winning for the other players will rise. Sorry for not introducing myself, I will do that shortly in the thread you link to.

      Best
      BArGaInChem
    • azhardelisya
      azhardelisya
      Basic
      Joined: 09.12.2014 Posts: 5
      Ok
    • Drew94
      Drew94
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.02.2015 Posts: 59
      It seems that the closer one is to the bubble the more $EV is geared towards stack size dynamics. I find this very intuitive and I feel that most thinking players are already working within the conclusions of ICM without necessarily knowing about the mathematical model.

      Is risk premium generally higher the further away one is from the bubble, especially in long handed games? It's reasonable to think that the gap between cEV and $EV is bigger when one's probability of placing higher is not increased significantly by an action. Would this concept possibly become bloated in the early stages of MTTs?

      I am sure cEV and common sense are better guides during the early to mid stages of MTTs, but I am very curious.
    • ggeshov
      ggeshov
      Bronze
      Joined: 25.12.2010 Posts: 180
      Can someone please help me understand something? Its about the lesson about the risk premium concept in the QQ call or fold example. In the equation of $EV(call) you multiply $18.30 * 52.37% because you are going to win 52.37% of the time. But then you add - $9.88 when you lose, but shouldn't it be like -9.88$ * 47.63% because you are going to lose only 47.63% of the time? Why is it that when you win you only take into account the % of time when you are going to win and when you lose you don't take into account the % of time you are going to lose? The same question goes for the equation for cEV(call). Any clarification would be much appreciated. =)
    • SDK1987
      SDK1987
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 12.11.2008 Posts: 30,460
      I expect is about this calculation:

      I’m not sure what you mean with the $9,88 here, because this is you’re chip value if you fold the hand. If you win than you’re stack has value of $18,30 and if you lose it’s nothing.
      You win 52,37% of the time $18,30 and that’s $9,58. If you lose you get nothing. So that’s 0.
      So a call has a value of $9,58+0=$9,58.

      So folding is in this example the best option, because you’re stack value is higher when you fold the hand.

      Hopefully it’s now a little more clear for you. If that’s not the case don’t hesitate to ask it.

      Best regards,
      SDK1987
    • ContenderNR7
      ContenderNR7
      Bronze
      Joined: 21.01.2011 Posts: 7
      how chip value differs in MTT's cause i think the numbers should be really different there ?
    • SDK1987
      SDK1987
      Moderator
      Moderator
      Joined: 12.11.2008 Posts: 30,460
      Indeed, but it depends already on with SNG you’re playing. Every prize pool is different and has consequents how you need to play based on $ev.
      On MTT’s you play pretty much based on Cev until the last 2 tables and than $ev kicks in.
      Most of the time it’s also a top heavy paid out structure. So than you play for top 3 or better most of the time.

      Hopefully helps this a little bit, but if you have more questions don’t hesitate to ask them.

      Best regards,
      SDK1987
    • tokenroll
      tokenroll
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.07.2015 Posts: 1
      good advise