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GGnetwork stole 5k$

    • VinzentVegas
      VinzentVegas
      Black
      Joined: 27.06.2011 Posts: 523
      Everyone who is playing on the network or is thinking about playing there should definetely read this, because it might happen to you too!:

      After not playing on the network for a few years (I will get into that later, since it is not that relevant) I started playing on the GGnetwork at the beginning of 2017 again. I was a winner in the 5/10 & 10/20 games, but did some table selection, because of the ridicolous high rake.

      After 1 or 2 months of playing I got a warning that I have been bumhunting, which is strictly forbidden on the site and if I would continue to do so I would get banned and my funds seized. Naively I decided to continue to play there and follow their rules. I started tables all the time and played anyone, pretty much never leaving a table until I quit my session. I played under the screenname TimsPhone (lesbian avatar) and anyone playing or observing those games can confirm this. During almost a year I can only think of 2 times where I quit a reg, because I had so much action elsewhere and I have been playing most days. While I was online I started every table on 5/10 & 10/20 and I am actually sure that this improved traffic at those stakes significantly.

      On January 12th, 2018 I got logged off in the middle of a session, saying my account got disabled. (This already cost me, because I was in the middle of hands.) After writing them an E-Mail they told me I have not been following their rules, by "committing the act of bum hunting and and Predatory Behavior. As such, in accordance with the policy that we had outlined in our previous email, we will proceed to permanently lock your account. In addition, the balance that was locked in the table that you had unfairly profited from will be confiscated. The amount that was confiscated due to bumhunting will be distributed to the users who were adversely affected by your actions as compensation."

      I am not exactly sure about the amount since I didn't check my balance at that time, but it was roughly 5k that they took out of my account. I asked them a few times to give me examples of breaking their rules, dates or at least the name of the player that got the refund. I always got the same E-Mail back, just with the addition that they can't provide me any more details. I obviously don't have any proof, but I am pretty sure they just saw that I have a high winrate and decided to ban me and kept some of my winnings.


      I am not seeking sympathy, it was completely my fault. This network has so many redflags, including having had chinese superusers on NL200&400 in 2014/2015. Greed got the best of me.
      But if you are currently playing there, please, consider cashing out or at least keep the minimum amount of money on there, your money is not safe and they could steal it any time.
      Also, are there any other regs who had the same fate? Given that I was the only one at 5/10 & 10/20 that actually didn't bumhunt I'm very curious.

      tl;dr:
      played nl1k&2k on ggnetwork
      got a warning I shouldn't bumhunt
      gave action to everyone
      still got banned and my money taken
      asked for proof that I breached the rules
      they won't provide any

      My 2+2 thread: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28/internet-poker/ggnetwork-stole-5k-1702944/
  • 45 replies
    • Tim128
      Tim128
      Gold
      Joined: 29.01.2017 Posts: 324
      Brutal, if you really did table start etc. then it's just a horrible act by them.
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 09.07.2010 Posts: 11,155
      Interesting part of their T&C:
      Predatory behavior is defined as an activity focused primarily on, but not limited to, exploiting others to gain monetary advantage.

      According to that, they could ban all regs. Cos the definition is exactly poker is all about.
    • Rhodriguez
      Rhodriguez
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.10.2006 Posts: 608
      It's the problem with non-exhaustive lists in general. You can use it as a plug for everything.
      Parker Talbot (tonkaaaap) and Joey Ingram discussed this in the last podcast. Poker sites don't want host cash games and get rid of them. They only want to provide tournaments, preferably KO-tournaments. So most-likely all player who said the never had a problem as winning players to cash out are tournament players. But I'm glad to read that at least your affiliate was able to help you.

      And to troll Kyyberis statement: only the focus on exploiting others is prohibited. The opposite of that would be playing perfectly balanced and pursue a GTO-approach.
    • LemOn36
      LemOn36
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 07.02.2009 Posts: 1,949
      Pretty sure any site has the right to not allow you play
      But to just seize the money without you using forbidden s oftware, colluding or doing other things like that? That does seemjust wrong
    • LemOn36
      LemOn36
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 07.02.2009 Posts: 1,949
      And I played there until August for months and didn't have any issues/messages (Natural8)
      That was at NL50/ NL100 and I did table select within reason (having 4 tables up always but swapping for better ones here and there)
    • Andreas
      Andreas
      Headadmin
      Headadmin
      Joined: 05.09.2011 Posts: 10,016
      I said it on the German board and I'll say it here as well.

      I don't quite understand why this gets posted in a Natural8 board.

      Based on the story I assume you didn't actually play on N8, so you cannot know if they would have supported you in this case. Not to mention that if you had been a tracked member of ours, we'd also try our best to get these cases settled in your favour.

      So yeah, bad luck for sure, the network rules seem odd too but I don't really appreciate this in a Natural8 related board given they had nothing to do with your loss of money.
    • VinzentVegas
      VinzentVegas
      Black
      Joined: 27.06.2011 Posts: 523
      And as I said in the german board it happened in the same network, so it is very relevant and people who want to play there have a right (and should) know
    • LemOn36
      LemOn36
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 07.02.2009 Posts: 1,949
      The emails you posted on 2p2 are from GGNetwork security directly if I get it right, not speficic skins?
    • VinzentVegas
      VinzentVegas
      Black
      Joined: 27.06.2011 Posts: 523
      Yes
      The skins can't do shit
    • kingpowl
      kingpowl
      Black
      Joined: 15.10.2006 Posts: 2,483
      I also feel like Natural8 is cheating in term of rakeback probabilities.

      A proper loyalty programme is finally introduced on Natural8.com - the Fish Buffet

      Maybe the two of us are just running bad af though. Can u please share ur experience?
    • VinzentVegas
      VinzentVegas
      Black
      Joined: 27.06.2011 Posts: 523
      I just had flat RB on my skin, it is Natural8 so I can't help you out there, sorry
    • LemOn36
      LemOn36
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 07.02.2009 Posts: 1,949
      Originally posted by VinzentVegas
      Yes
      The skins can't do shit
      Well Andreas has a good point here - Natural8 is the biggest player on GGNet AFAIK so you have a lot more pull through them+Pokerstrategy.
      Than when you play through a private person on Snailpoker/AllNewPoker which is just a minor "skin" (https://www.ggnetwork.com/partners), you always have more risk with these seemingly higher value deals.

      I've played on N8 without issues and recommended the site in my coachings and imagine they'd help out if funds were taken out for mere table selection.
    • Rhodriguez
      Rhodriguez
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.10.2006 Posts: 608
      Originally posted by LemOn36
      Well Andreas has a good point here - Natural8 is the biggest player on GGNet AFAIK so you have a lot more pull through them+Pokerstrategy.
      Than when you play through a private person on Snailpoker/AllNewPoker which is just a minor "skin" (https://www.ggnetwork.com/partners), you always have more risk with these seemingly higher value deals.
      Natural8 is listed under turnkey. Why would they have more power? And it's also not what you can hear from their ambassador.
    • VinzentVegas
      VinzentVegas
      Black
      Joined: 27.06.2011 Posts: 523
      Originally posted by LemOn36
      Originally posted by VinzentVegas
      Yes
      The skins can't do shit
      Well Andreas has a good point here - Natural8 is the biggest player on GGNet AFAIK so you have a lot more pull through them+Pokerstrategy.
      Than when you play through a private person on Snailpoker/AllNewPoker which is just a minor "skin" (https://www.ggnetwork.com/partners), you always have more risk with these seemingly higher value deals.

      I've played on N8 without issues and recommended the site in my coachings and imagine they'd help out if funds were taken out for mere table selection.
      Maybe, maybe not, we know. But wouldn't you like to know whats happening in the room? Wouldn't you like the people to know? Because Andreas doesn't.
    • tonypmm
      tonypmm
      Gold
      Joined: 11.01.2009 Posts: 4,823
      Originally posted by Andreas
      I don't quite understand why this gets posted in a Natural8 board.
      The decision to suspend or ban a player for 'unethical behaviour' is made solely by the management of the network. Operators have no say in it. Do you mean that this forum should be only about the matters over which Natural8 has control (marketing, payment processing) and not used to discuss the network's decisions even though they create precedents that can be potentially applied to N8 players?
    • tonypmm
      tonypmm
      Gold
      Joined: 11.01.2009 Posts: 4,823
      Originally posted by VinzentVegas
      I started tables all the time and played anyone, pretty much never leaving a table until I quit my session. I played under the screenname TimsPhone (lesbian avatar) and anyone playing or observing those games can confirm this. During almost a year I can only think of 2 times where I quit a reg, because I had so much action elsewhere and I have been playing most days. While I was online I started every table on 5/10 & 10/20 and I am actually sure that this improved traffic at those stakes significantly.
      Technically, the network needs your service as a table starter only when all the other tables are full.

      To compare, Unibet enforces this automatically (as far as I remember): when a seat opens up at one of the full tables, and you're sitting alone at another, then you're removed from the latter table (and sat onto the former one if you're not there yet); also, if you're HU and a seat opens at a full table where you're already sitting, then your HU opponent is transferred to that open seat by force, and you're removed from the HU table.

      On the GG network, as we know, the seating mechanism is more liberal: although there's an option to move tables, you and your opponent may change it and stay at the particular table even if there are open seats at fuller tables.

      Generally, I avoiding sitting alone whenever there's an open seat at any other table of the same stake, exactly because I'm afraid of bumhunting accusations. It's a bit of a nuisance to stand up and then sit back in once all the tables are filled, because an empty table loads for 10-15 seconds on my old laptop, but I really suspect that what got you into trouble is that you weren't scanning the lobby to see if all the tables are full, and staying HU when there were open seats elsewhere.

      I'm sorry for your trouble and would like to get an answer from N8Rep on whether the act of sitting alone (or playing HU after sitting in first) when there are open seats at the other dealing tables of the same stake is in itself considered 'predatory behaviour' by the network regardless of how weak or strong the HU opponent is (even though I constantly see regs do this).
    • Kyyberi
      Kyyberi
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 09.07.2010 Posts: 11,155
      I would like to hear something from someone, as the story so far doesn't make any sense. Since when it became "illegal" to play HU? Some of us actually like HU more than full table, and as there are no HU tables available it should be said clearly in the rules if it' not allowed. And also the wording for "predatory behaviour" is just plain [insert a word here]. The whole idea of skills games is to be better than your opponent by exploiting your opponents. I have no idea how one can play poker profitably long-term unless he exploits opponents. Or how can anyone besides recreational gambler play poker and not exploiting anyone. The thought "Hmm, he has bluffed me a lot. I call!" is exploiting.

      There are always two sides to a story, and unfortunately GGnetwork can't come give us any proofs. Problem is that when they don't give anything to OP, no one has any way to know what has happened. We don't know if OP tells the whole truth or not.

      What bothers me is that according to those emails, it's forbidden to try to play with "good customers" and not playing with "bad customers". As the rake is high, then table with 6 regs is pretty much -EV for all in the long run. Does the network force me to continue playing when the table turns to -EV? Or if I have two tables available and I select the one with more Fish? According to the rules, I can't target Fishes anymore.

      But why they have this thing called Fish Bufffet then?

      And here's my question to N8 presentative: As I have color labeled opponents according to their skill level, and said in live streams that one should always try to play with opponents that are most +EV to you, have I broken the T&C with predatory behaviour? And I would like to get a quick reply as my next stream at N8 is at Thursday.
    • nsavov
      nsavov
      Bronze
      Joined: 24.09.2010 Posts: 1,054
      Pro tip:

      Strandle ALL-IN every hand. You will get at least 12% freeroll. Plus you will be up there on the strandle boards AND you will spin that rakeback roulette.
      Gosh, poker is so fun and easy these days.

      They should nerf bluffing and ban thin value betting next. So OP
    • Natural8Rep
      Natural8Rep
      Gold
      Joined: 28.03.2017 Posts: 66
      Hello,

      We know the directive of GGNetwork is as follow:

      "In general, players are expected to be seated with the purpose of playing. It is acceptable to be seated and occasionally deny action in certain circumstances, such as being seated to help start a new ring game, but not willing to play heads-up. It is not acceptable to remain seated out at a table (especially an active one) waiting for one of only a few preferred opponents to arrive to play in; in other words, it is not acceptable to target specific players. In general, seated players are expected to accept action much more often than they refuse it. Failure to abide by these rules will result in the permanent suspension of playing privileges. These rules are applied to all games of our network. The actions of your play showed that you did not follow these rules, violating the rules of GGNetwork, and as such we must take strict measures."

      That is the network's standard reply to bumhunting, of which the player will be given a final warning.