[NL20-NL50] 10 8s - Flopped OESD & Flush draw

    • Hackett77
      Hackett77
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2009 Posts: 372
      Hello, THis is the first one ive posted for evaluation, Im pretty sure I made the right play??

      I have a full stack


      Known players:
      Position
      BB
      CO
      BU

      0.25/0.5 No-Limit Hold'em (4 handed)
      Hand recorder used for this poker hand: PokerStrategy Elephant 0.67 by www.pokerstrategy.com.

      Preflop: Hero is SB with 8:spade: , T:spade:
      CO raises to $1.00, BU folds, Hero calls $0.75, BB folds.

      Flop: ($2.50) J:spade: , 9:diamond: , 9:spade: (2 players)
      Hero checks, CO bets $2.50, Hero raises to $6.00, CO raises to $138.85 (All-In), Hero ????
  • 16 replies
    • Atoks
      Atoks
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.06.2008 Posts: 1,393
      Calling T8s in the SB is very tricky, specially when u find urself in a spot like this one. Just fold this preflop next time or maybe try 3Bet now and then to defend, but not too often. U want to play hands like this as the preflop raiser in position, this is just fishing really. As played tho I make a call here.
    • nafar84
      nafar84
      Bronze
      Joined: 20.09.2008 Posts: 546
      Yeah T8s OOP sucks unless you want to 3bet it, but for that I'd much prefer a villain with a wider late opening range than this guy.
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      I´d also fold T8s pf, you should call on the flop, although if you want to avoid variance, fold is also fine.
    • veriz
      veriz
      Black
      Joined: 20.07.2008 Posts: 65,504
      Hello,

      As you called preflop, you actually have to Call on flop because it's a nuts flop for you but I would myself also prefer to fold preflop.

      Best regards,
      Rensu
    • Hackett77
      Hackett77
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2009 Posts: 372
      Thanks for your input

      I actually called pre flop not because of my hole cards but as after watching him for a fair few hands felt I could easily outplay him iven the right moment so I choose this one. Ordinarily I probably wouldnt call 8 10s OOP unless it was a mulitpot however I do try to play the opponent as much as my actual hole cards which works for me.

      I felt my chances against him HU were pretty good, depending on the texture of the board of course.

      So yes, probably a bit loose PF but I think I probably would of called that particular hand with any two as I felt he was just overstepping it a bit the last few hands with his aggresssion and felt it was a good time to play a bit. PLus the raise was only a minimum raise so was cheap chance i felt to take down a PFR + Cbet?

      PF I was really planning on a good flop to float and take down on the turn but when the flop came felt i had to play it much more aggressively?

      As it turns out I actually judged him totally wrong and He had KK but I did hit a nice flop anyway so made the call and won the pot.
    • Atoks
      Atoks
      Bronze
      Joined: 01.06.2008 Posts: 1,393
      nevermind need to work on this more
    • LemOn36
      LemOn36
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 07.02.2009 Posts: 1,540
      Originally posted by Hackett77
      Thanks for your input

      I actually called pre flop not because of my hole cards but as after watching him for a fair few hands felt I could easily outplay him iven the right moment so I choose this one. Ordinarily I probably wouldnt call 8 10s OOP unless it was a mulitpot however I do try to play the opponent as much as my actual hole cards which works for me.

      I felt my chances against him HU were pretty good, depending on the texture of the board of course.

      So yes, probably a bit loose PF but I think I probably would of called that particular hand with any two as I felt he was just overstepping it a bit the last few hands with his aggresssion and felt it was a good time to play a bit. PLus the raise was only a minimum raise so was cheap chance i felt to take down a PFR + Cbet?

      PF I was really planning on a good flop to float and take down on the turn but when the flop came felt i had to play it much more aggressively?

      As it turns out I actually judged him totally wrong and He had KK but I did hit a nice flop anyway so made the call and won the pot.

      IF you think you can outplay him than 3BET PF. Playing without initiative OOP is not outplaying, its playing roulette and wishing to hit a monster.
      Also, Floating is much more succesfull in position MUCH.


      I can clearly see that you are screaming to open up and gambol, but you are not yet good at it.
      If you want to play many cards that go play LAG. Raise to 3BB+X, open to around 30/27++ with 50% steals and 9-13% +3Bet.
      Your goal is is to always be in position with the PF initiative or at least have the initiative, and never call PF unless setmining with 22-55 and against other LAG's.

      If you think you can outplay an opponent you really do need at least one of these, or you are plain gambling and not using your edge on later streets.
    • Hackett77
      Hackett77
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2009 Posts: 372
      I dont think a 3bet would of been worth it is if I was right I would only of won $1

      whereas my plan to float and take it down on turn would of made me $3+

      But its nothing to do with roulette or hoping to hit a monster. I dont think you need to hit a flop to win the hand.

      As I said I was plannin to float and take it down on the turn regardless of the flop as long as there was no A, K or Q

      Whether I had hit anything wasnt an issue, I wasnt expecting the flop to help me at all, but as he had raised and Cbet the last 3 hands I felt I would take this one away with some post flop action regardless of the flop as long as i figured HE didnt hit, then it doesnt matter if I hit or not.

      Then obviously the flop came and I had to revaluate and I had actualy hit something so this changed it all.

      As far as screaming to open up and gamble thats not my steal, as a rule I even usually avoid Variance rich situations and prefer to make my money based on my image and reads of other players habits.

      He was good for a float but yes doing it OOP was a mistake
    • LemOn36
      LemOn36
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 07.02.2009 Posts: 1,540
      Originally posted by Hackett77
      I dont think a 3bet would of been worth it is if I was right I would only of won $1

      whereas my plan to float and take it down on turn would of made me $3+

      But its nothing to do with roulette or hoping to hit a monster. I dont think you need to hit a flop to win the hand.

      As I said I was plannin to float and take it down on the turn regardless of the flop as long as there was no A, K or Q

      Whether I had hit anything wasnt an issue, I wasnt expecting the flop to help me at all, but as he had raised and Cbet the last 3 hands I felt I would take this one away with some post flop action regardless of the flop as long as i figured HE didnt hit, then it doesnt matter if I hit or not.
      How do you figure if he hit or not when his range is 15% PFR?
      How do you know if he has an overpair or not?
      How do you know he has a weak hand on turn when he didn't show any weakness?
      How will HE believe you a hand when you called PF and called flop? Wouldn't you raise check-raise if you flop a set?


      And if you really are good at exploiting your oponents and have a big edge over everyone at the table than try to see as many flops as possible and use your skills ;)
    • Hackett77
      Hackett77
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2009 Posts: 372
      Originally posted by LemOn36
      Originally posted by Hackett77
      I dont think a 3bet would of been worth it is if I was right I would only of won $1

      whereas my plan to float and take it down on turn would of made me $3+

      But its nothing to do with roulette or hoping to hit a monster. I dont think you need to hit a flop to win the hand.

      As I said I was plannin to float and take it down on the turn regardless of the flop as long as there was no A, K or Q

      Whether I had hit anything wasnt an issue, I wasnt expecting the flop to help me at all, but as he had raised and Cbet the last 3 hands I felt I would take this one away with some post flop action regardless of the flop as long as i figured HE didnt hit, then it doesnt matter if I hit or not.
      How do you figure if he hit or not when his range is 15% PFR?
      How do you know if he has an overpair or not?
      How do you know he has a weak hand on turn?
      I guess I figured this was the 3rd raise in 3 consecutive hands which made him less likely to have a strong hand and the table had just dropped from 8 to 4 handed so I (wrongly) assumed he was maximising his image and going for another pot

      But yeah i se the more I look at his stats I choose the wrong position to to do this as I would of been in the dark the whole hand.
    • Hackett77
      Hackett77
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2009 Posts: 372
      Originally posted by LemOn36

      How will HE believe you a hand when you called PF and called flop? Wouldn't you raise check-raise if you flop a set?

      I did Check-Raise the flop :)
    • LemOn36
      LemOn36
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 07.02.2009 Posts: 1,540
      Originally posted by Hackett77
      Originally posted by LemOn36

      How will HE believe you a hand when you called PF and called flop? Wouldn't you raise check-raise if you flop a set?
      I did Check-Raise the flop :)
      I mean that for the cases when he hits or has an overpair, on the case of floating

      This hand was well played on the flop, and you played it like orthodox set-miners. But they are called that because sets are worth mining, while double gappers don't hit enough flops to play passively oop 100bb deep :)


      And as you said you have to be very careful when you judge only on few consecutive hands. Variance is a silly ho' and as random walk theory tells you, just because heads fell 8 times in a row doesn't make tails more likely and he really may have woken up with a hand or hit something on the flop.
      And its hard to know oop without initiative
    • Hackett77
      Hackett77
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2009 Posts: 372
      Originally posted by LemOn36



      And if you really are good at exploiting your oponents and have a big edge over everyone at the table than try to see as many flops as possible and use your skills ;)
      I dont think I have a big edge over my opponents, I am a relative begginne, Ive only been playing a few years and while a profitable player I do still have many leaks which ive discovered courtesy of PS. but I do have a knack for sensing weakness but your point is something I have been considering, SHould I switch to ta LAG style.

      But the truth is I dont think I have the stomach for it anyway, I dont like high variance and try to pick and choose spots to play, I personally think floating and over post flop moves are better coming from a TAG as their more believable but I have started to loosen up my game from the BU/CO to around 30-25% respectively

      All said and done though my reads in this case were way off mark as he had a monster.
    • Hackett77
      Hackett77
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2009 Posts: 372
      your point about random walk theory is a good one too.

      I think I assume too much that when a player starts raising 3-4 hands out of nowhere there trying it on, forgeting the countless times I have nothing for ages then 3-4 great hands come along in succession.
    • Hackett77
      Hackett77
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2009 Posts: 372
      Also, Assuming I could see his holdcards and knew preflop he had KK, Isnt 10 8s or similar connector the perfect hand to call with?

      But yes I made mistake for the positional factor.
    • LemOn36
      LemOn36
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 07.02.2009 Posts: 1,540
      Originally posted by Hackett77
      Originally posted by LemOn36



      And if you really are good at exploiting your oponents and have a big edge over everyone at the table than try to see as many flops as possible and use your skills ;)
      I dont think I have a big edge over my opponents, I am a relative begginne, Ive only been playing a few years and while a profitable player I do still have many leaks which ive discovered courtesy of PS. but I do have a knack for sensing weakness but your point is something I have been considering, SHould I switch to ta LAG style.

      But the truth is I dont think I have the stomach for it anyway, I dont like high variance and try to pick and choose spots to play, I personally think floating and over post flop moves are better coming from a TAG as their more believable but I have started to loosen up my game from the BU/CO to around 30-25% respectively

      All said and done though my reads in this case were way off mark as he had a monster.

      Well Said about LAG. TAG play you play standard and pick good spots here and there, while LAG you have to exploit whatever small edge or small weakness you can sense. A lot higher BR is needed as 10BI swings are common unless you really crush the limit and you have not to only exploit opponents in few spots, but you have to know their image, your image, their smallest tendencies and the history of you both playing together.

      Its actually great for learning poker as there are so many hands to analyse and weaknesses you can fix+ your board reading ability increases tremendously, but its not for everyone :)