M-factor, Shoving Table

    • grummeler
      Joined: 28.05.2006 Posts: 2,237
      SO ladies and gentleman, finally im going to start to put some ideas into this forum.
      many players asked me to put a shoving table into this forum, when to shove with which M.
      Most of this ideas come from the Harrington on Holdem books, so if you already got them, go threw them again to get basic ideas.


      so, in this chapter we will talk about WHEN to openshove (first in) with which M factor left in chips.

      M between 5 and 6:

      when your M has shrunk to 6 or lower you should really start to think about openshoving. some player think that they want to just raise with AA or KK in order to get more value out of their monsters. but this idea is wrong.
      true, sometimes people will reshove you if you just raise but they will fold to an all in bet. but that is really rare. when i see a small stack raising with reasonable stats, im more suspicous then if he just shoves it all in.
      so with all your hands you want to play, you have to make the same play, to balance your line AND to get more value out of your monsters!
      yea thats true, because if you shove with AQ, and with 77 and with T9s as well, people will wonder with which hands you shove their and they will look you up. so when you finally have a strong hand like AA or KK they will just see that you are shoving again and call you.
      so dont try to be too tricky. you maximize foldequity with your weak hands and you will create some value for your real monsters.
      Here now the basic Table for the positions:
      UTG and UTG+1:
      i just shove the real good hands from that position. so my shoving range with an M between 5 and 6 is somehow tight.
      i shove, 99+,AQs+,AQo+ from that postions
      MP1 and MP2:
      here we can start getting a bit loser:
      i shove 77+,AJs+,KQs,AJo+,KQo
      MP3 and CO:
      now we can really start to get lose
      i shove 22+,A9s+,KJs+,ATo+,KJo+
      we dont have to shove ATC!!!! because our stack is not hopeless we can still pick only some better hands
      BU and SB:
      no difference here
      i shove 22+,A7s+,KTs+,QJs,JTs,T9s,98s,87s,A8o+,KTo+,QJo
      maybe a bit more if the tights are very tight and a bit less if the blinds are very lose.

      M between 5 and 4

      right now our stack is really small and getting even lower on chips will cut down our foldequity alot. so we should start getting really agressive here

      UTG and UTG+1
      right now we should really become more lose from the first positions because if we run threw the blinds again we will lose alot of our stack.
      but still we have ONE more orbit before we have to push ATC so dont be in a hurry to shove T8o or something like that
      i shove: 55+,ATs+,KQs,AJo+,KQo
      i only fold the smallest pairs here, although with an M of 4 i shove ANY pair from ANY position.

      MP1 and MP2
      again a bit loser then the range from utg
      i shove 22+,A9s+,KJs+,QJs,ATo+,KQo

      MP3 and CO
      with an M that low we start shoving almost any playable hand from that positions

      BU and SB
      depending on how tight or lose the blinds are the range can change a bit but with an M of 4 we start shoving ATC from those two positions against tight blinds.
      against lose blinds i shove like this:
      sop our ranges start getting really really lose.
      if your M is more like 5 then like 4, be a bit tighter !!!!!

      M between 3 and 4

      right now our stack is so small, that we CANT go threw the blinds again without shoving. so what we get here, is that our shoving range switches a bit. because we cant go threw the blinds again, but our FE has shrunk alot and some players will call us very lose the following pushing tables might be irritating for you

      with an M of or 3,5 we cant really chose our hand now.
      if we go threw the blinds again our stack is so small that we dont have ANY foldequity anymore. and thats a horrible scenario we have to avoid !
      so from utg, i shove
      ATC !!!!!!!
      this might look strong to some players because we shove from utg but truelly our range is 100% here ;)

      UTG+1 MP1
      we shove alot of hands here as well, because we know we have to shove before we reach the blinds again we shove 49% from UTG+1 because if our hand is above average we know its on average better then the hand we get UTG so we shove it.
      from MP1 we shove a bit tighter but still like this:

      MP2 and MP3
      here we shove still lose, but a bit tighter then from UTG+1 and MP1
      you might ask yourself WHY ? because we have better position we can shove loser !!!!! but i think thats not true ;) your foldequity is really low, and the later your position the loser other players will look you up.
      you still shove ALOT of hands, but from that positions we have still 3 hands before we HAVE to shove so we shove alot, but not ATC
      i shove 22+,A2s+,K5s+,Q8s+,J8s+,T8s+,98s,87s,76s,65s,A2o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo

      CO, BU now our position is even better! not only because we have less players behind us (lesser chance there is a real good hand) but because we have now some time before we HAVE to shove.
      we still shove hell alot of hands
      depending on how tight (more hands we shove) or lose (less hands we shove) the blinds are we shove like this

      we now have only one player behind us.
      so our shoving range is 49% :)
      so EVERY hand above avrg is worth a shove, because on avrg we have a better hand then our opponent + some foldequity :)
      so its easy to see that a shove with +avrg hand is +ev

      M between 2 and 3
      we can only come here by accident. maybe we shoved and got called by a smaller stack or we called a small stack and are almost dead.

      we now shove ANY HAND from ANY position if we are first in. this first in might be our last chance to have some foldequity so we take it. our hand doesnt matter any more we just take the chance of FE and move all in.

      M lower then 2

      now it gets tricky :)
      our foldequity is ZERO !!!!!! so we are now not looking for a first in unless we have good chances to be headsup. so from BU and SB we shove ATC
      from MP2 and MP3 we shove 49% of our hands.
      from the first 3 postions we shove any resonable holding like connectors, sc, K high, Q high, Ahigh, suited J and any pair.

      another good situation arrives when somebody in front of you raise !!!
      now you have a pretty good chance to get headsup in a big pot, and this might be a pretty good situation to tripple up your stack.
      so if someone raise or movres all in in front of you you call with any reasonable holding like connectors, suited J and so on (see above) because you have a good chance to get headsup.
      now you are not the threat (anybody can call you very lose because of your stacksize) but other players have to be afraid of the bigger stack and cant call that lose anymore.
      in that situation you should really try to jump into the raise to get headsup and to triplle up.
      to be headsup with 56o against AK is better then to move all in with 56o and get called by to players who check you down !
      so be rdy !

      so this is my first FIRST IN OPEN SHOVE table for MTTS.
      the next time there will be an article about when to
      RESHOVE / Resteal all in with which M and with which hands.

      so be rdy to look into the forum when its


      ps. i will try to put this table into a easy to see shoving table so that you could possibly print it out and put onto your screen ;)
  • 7 replies
    • NickParkes
      Joined: 07.07.2008 Posts: 1,526
      Hey Grummeler

      Thanks for the table and the input but I have some questions... firstly the main one which sticks out is the SB range btw M of 3&4... 49%... this is waaaaay too tight IMO... this is for me largely an ATC spot, and against a loose opponent maybe I can tighten up to about 80%... but folding 51% of the time just sucks so hard here....

      In general I think I found the ranges pretty tight... like if I have an M of 5.5, and I am sitting UTG+1 and I had ATs vs paying the blinds in 2 hands I open shove instantly... but I don't mind making a slightly -ev shove in order to preserve FE and maybe double up...
    • grummeler
      Joined: 28.05.2006 Posts: 2,237
      why i do shove somehow "tight" from SB with an M of 3-4 is :

      i dont have to be in such a hurry that i shove 95o because i have plenty of time left before i really HAVE to do something again because im on the button next hand.
      and when i shove 49% of my hands i still make ALOT of steals with guarentueed +EV.
      but depending on the stacks of my oppoenent and his stats this might switch a bit.
      if there is a bigdstack in the BB im not shoving more then 49% because he might look me up somehow lose.
      if the stack in the blind is not that big we can shove ATC because he cant call us lose because this would cripple him.

      so this basic structure of the shoving table is for sure not 100% correct because of the many different situations that might arrive.

      but i really dont like shoving ATC from SB with an M of 4
      with an M of 3 im shoving ATC
      but i typed M bewteen 3 and 4 so we have to make some changes in it.

      maybe i should split it up even more so 3,5-4
      3-3,5 and so on.


      again same story
      i mixed M6 and M5 within this range.

      with an M of 6 im NOT shoving ATs from UTG+1
      with an M of 5 im shoving ATs from UTG+1

      so with an M of 5,5 its again how lose the table is willing to call.

      but i totally agree.
      i have to overwork this table and to split it up even more

      because there is just too much difference between M6 and M5

      and too much difference between M4 and M5

      thx for the posting. i wait a bit for more ideas and then overdo it again to split it up even more.

      are you fine with my explanations above ?
    • NickParkes
      Joined: 07.07.2008 Posts: 1,526
      Yeah, nice explanations and I agree with a lot of it... I'll give it some more thought, particularly the 49% from SB with 4 M scenario... but yeah, I think the tables above are good as a general guideline, and knowing how to adjust to different tables scenarios is just as important...
    • xxxdannyxxx
      Joined: 30.05.2008 Posts: 1,033
      why do you say to shove so tight with M5-6 especially in early position?I think you can shove a lot wider in that situation.at least:66+,AJ+,ATs+,KQ,JTs+
    • Julest
      Joined: 01.10.2008 Posts: 1,757
      Originally posted by xxxdannyxxx
      why do you say to shove so tight with M5-6 especially in early position?I think you can shove a lot wider in that situation.at least:66+,AJ+,ATs+,KQ,JTs+
      I agree, but I will prefer a range about : 55+,AT+,JK+
    • gape0000
      Joined: 28.08.2007 Posts: 628
      Ty grummeler much appreciated :s_grin:
    • alexgrapid
      Joined: 20.12.2008 Posts: 242
      I got a question if the table is shorthanded lets say 7 people, If i'm the first one I'm UTG or MP1 as in cash games ???they say if there are 7 people there is no EP .I hope you cand help me with this thing ,and when I use SNG wiz they have much looser ranges than you for example when you say to push with an M of 5 on MP+1,with the loosest opponents they have a range of 29.4 22+ A7+ A2s KT+ K6s+ QT+ Q8S+ JT+ J7s... .I'm kinda confused right now I dont know what ranges to apply .