[NL2-NL10] Pair 10's Preflop

    • NYCSavage
      NYCSavage
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.08.2007 Posts: 35
      When DDante88 started raising constantly, I was actually tempted to fold, I won but did I use my hand to its best abilities

      #Game No : 6253650659
      ***** Hand History for Game 6253650659 *****
      $ 5 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, August 20, 12:49:29 ET 2007
      Table Table 127736 (Real Money)
      Seat 5 is the button
      Total number of players : 10
      Seat 1: Foldar ( $ 2.17 USD )
      Seat 2: JesuuZzz ( $ 4.95 USD )
      Seat 4: wsarah123 ( $ 3.92 USD )
      Seat 7: connygott24 ( $ 2.48 USD )
      Seat 8: drgonzo85xxx ( $ 0 USD )
      Seat 9: JdoubleU222 ( $ 4.63 USD )
      Seat 6: NYCSavage ( $ 4.96 USD )
      Seat 3: henne1986 ( $ 5 USD )
      Seat 10: Verwirrkopf ( $ 1.72 USD )
      Seat 5: DDante88 ( $ 4.92 USD )
      NYCSavage posts small blind [$ 0.02 USD].
      connygott24 posts big blind [$ 0.04 USD].
      ** Dealing down cards **
      Dealt to NYCSavage [ Th Td ]
      drgonzo85xxx has left the table.
      Verwirrkopf folds
      JdoubleU222 folds
      Foldar folds
      JesuuZzz folds
      henne1986 folds
      wsarah123 folds
      DDante88 calls [$ 0.04 USD]
      NYCSavage calls [$ 0.02 USD]
      connygott24 raises [$ 0.04 USD]
      DDante88 calls [$ 0.04 USD]
      NYCSavage calls [$ 0.04 USD]
      ** Dealing Flop ** [ Tc, Ks, 4h ]
      NYCSavage checks
      connygott24 bets [$ 0.12 USD]
      DDante88 raises [$ 0.24 USD]
      NYCSavage calls [$ 0.24 USD]
      connygott24 calls [$ 0.12 USD]
      ** Dealing Turn ** [ Kc ]
      NYCSavage checks
      connygott24 checks
      DDante88 bets [$ 0.20 USD]
      NYCSavage calls [$ 0.20 USD]
      connygott24 folds
      ** Dealing River ** [ 6c ]
      NYCSavage bets [$ 0.04 USD]
      DDante88 calls [$ 0.04 USD]
      NYCSavage shows [ Th, Td ]a full house, Tens full of Kings.
      DDante88 doesn't show [ Qc, Kd ]three of a kind, Kings.
      NYCSavage wins $ 1.37 USD from the main pot with a full house, Tens full of Kings.
  • 14 replies
    • Pacer357
      Pacer357
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.04.2007 Posts: 1,807
      You play this way to passively, first of raise it preflop 5bb because you got one limper and when you hit your set your main objective is to get as much money in as possible you got the second nuts and you want to play for stacks. No need to slowplay at these levels. Bet out and if your raised perfectly keep on pushing. Here you won a pot of less then $2 when he would easily pay you of with his whole stack. You need to get way more aggressive or you will never be a winning player. Read the articles and think about the game. You need to get a grip on the basics of the game or you will only give away your money.
    • howard182
      howard182
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.10.2006 Posts: 416
      I think you need to find the bet slider and the raise button. Just completing TT in the SB with a button limper is... okay, but usually you do want to raise there. Calling the flop isn't too bad because the pot's growing quite nicely without your help so far and it's not too drawy. Not raising the turn bet is terrible and minbetting the river is disgusting. Top pair on the flop, which is very likely with that action (use a hand convertor and don't post the results btw), now has trips and you're not getting paid by much else, so put that money in! Don't expect anyone other than confirmed maniacs to do it for you!

      Also, what the hell at tempted to fold? And "raising constantly"? There are two raises in the whole hand, one's preflop and the other's a flop min raise where you have the second nuts! I'm a bit worried that you might not know poker hand rankings or the rules for making a hold'em hand. Was your minbet on the river perhaps you being afraid of a backdoor flush that wouldn't beat you anyway?
    • Mugge88
      Mugge88
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.10.2006 Posts: 510
      Just to make it a little easier to analyse:


      0,02/0,04 No-Limit Hold'em (9 handed)
      Hand recorder used for this poker hand: Texas Grabem 1.8 by www.pokerstrategy.cc.

      Preflop: Hero is SB with T:heart: , T:diamond:
      6 folds, BU calls $0,04, Hero calls $0,02, BB raises to $0,08, BU calls $0,04, Hero calls $0,04.

      Flop: ($0,24) T:club: , K:spade: , 4:heart: (3 players)
      Hero checks, BB bets $0,12, BU raises to $0,24, Hero calls $0,24, BB calls $0,12.

      Turn: ($0,96) K:club: (3 players)
      Hero checks, BB checks, BU bets $0,20, Hero calls $0,20, BB folds.

      River: ($1,36) 6:club: (2 players)
      Hero bets $0,04, BU calls $0,04.

      Final Pot: $1,44


      And as Howard and Pacer already said quite clearly: Your thoughts when playing poker should be:
      Is there a good reason to bet or raise? No, then: Is there a good reason to check or fold? No, then: Is there a good reason to call?

      And just for me to add a little:
      Preflop: TT is a hand which plays good in HU pots, try to isolate the button another time - calling in this spot isn't the worst mistake though since you can play TT for set-value only which will be easier since you are OOP.

      Flop: As the action goes I would have played it the same - the pot grows without your help, and there are no obvious draw possibilities out.

      Turn: You hit you boat and are sitting with the 4th nuts - great! Now get some money in - it's in these cases you need to make some cash to be a constantly winning player. This equals raising the buttons small bet up so you got a chance of winning a big pot/getting AI on the river.

      River: This is where it get's bad :( NEVER EVER minimum bet/raise - remember this rule and use it!

      To conclude: As the other two already said: You lose alot of value from your good hands playing them this way - turn up your aggression and win some big pots with your big hands.

      May your pots be huge and your cards be monsters :)

      Best regards,
      Mugge
    • Puschkin81
      Puschkin81
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.04.2006 Posts: 4,786
      Hi NYCSavage!

      Read the recommendations and comments from the other players. They should be helpful to improve your game. And even more important: Keep posting your hands! :)

      @ pacer357, howard182 and mugge88: Thanks for the comments. Good job! But please don't be too harsh. NYCSavage got his money a few hours ago and is at the very beginning of his career.

      Good luck at the tables!
      Puschkin81
    • Pacer357
      Pacer357
      Bronze
      Joined: 18.04.2007 Posts: 1,807
      Not trying to be harsh just trying to protect his investment. Just read the articles look at the hands posted and work hard with the theory. If you start of playing and don´t invest any time studying you will loose the starting capital fast. Be strict using the starting hand chart. Look at the coaching sessions they are great.
    • howard182
      howard182
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.10.2006 Posts: 416
      My tone was definitely too harsh towards a beginner, I was just a tad dumbfounded by the hand and comment.

      Do all of the above, but most importantly (for you, in my opinion) remember not to be timid at the tables. Tight aggressive and loose aggressive can be winning styles but no long term winner plays passively.

      Hopefully you'll be able to let loose your inner shark on the micro limits and then beyond with some study.
    • Puschkin81
      Puschkin81
      Bronze
      Joined: 14.04.2006 Posts: 4,786
      Thanks guys! I know that you just want the best for all of us. Keep doing that! :)

      Good luck at the tables!
      Puschkin81
    • NYCSavage
      NYCSavage
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.08.2007 Posts: 35
      Ok guys, thanks for the comments, I do appreciate them all and I in no way see them as harsh words.

      As Puschkin said, this is the early days for my career.

      I must admit, when its my turn to go first, I dont want everyone to get a chance to read me, so I check and allow them to make their move. Can I call it a beginners mistake?

      Although, as a beginner, I am playing 0.02/0.04 hands and im nearly $3 up from less than 2 hours of poker! I knew I was passive, im trying to find the fine line between using what I know, and using what ive already discovered on here.
    • NYCSavage
      NYCSavage
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.08.2007 Posts: 35
      Originally posted by howard182
      Also, what the hell at tempted to fold?
      I noticed I didnt have top pair, and was worried that Dante may have had four Kings, so thats why I was thinking about it
    • Mugge88
      Mugge88
      Bronze
      Joined: 29.10.2006 Posts: 510
      You are seeing monsters under the bed if you were considering folding that :)

      A general rule to help you on the road: Never fold when you hit a set (3 of a kind, with two of the cards on your hand).
      There are a few cases where you could fold (such as when 4 to a flush/straight is on the board by the river and you are getting action from more than one opponent and some other cases, but they are rare). You will lose once in a while with a set, but not as much as you would lose in value if you consider folding in such spots as you posted :)

      Hope you can use the advise, no offence meant at all - We were all new to the game once - heck, most in here (including myself) still are.

      Best regards,
      Mugge
    • NYCSavage
      NYCSavage
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.08.2007 Posts: 35
      That is good advice, thank you (although I doubt your a noob like me lol)
    • howard182
      howard182
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.10.2006 Posts: 416
      Indeed you didn't have top pair, you had a set which is much better. And then a full house which is better still.

      There is 1 way to make KK (for KKKKT) left in the deck. There are 2 for KT (for KKKTT), 6 for K6 (KKK66) and 6 again for K4 (KKK44). That's all that beats your TT for TTTKK.

      Now here are the figures for some hands you beat:

      Kx (for KKKTx): 8 each
      44 (for 444KK): 3
      66 (for 666KK): 3
      AA (for AAKKT): 6
      JQ (for a busted straight draw): 16

      These are the frequencies based on the definite information available to us: the cards on the board and in our hand. As poker players we use judgement to mould these into an approximation of the real probabilities of our opponent holding those hands and seek to take the action which our opponent responds to in ways that produce the most profitable average.

      K6 and K4 are folded preflop by most players even at NL5, so they get reduced weight. KK is raised most by players even at NL5, so the same applies. The same is true for AA.

      Without knowing the player we can't say much about the other candidates from the preflop action (calling the min raise means nothing more than that there was no intention to limp/reraise, again speaking against KK/AA), but the flop action tells us more.

      When the preflop raiser bets on the flop we can't infer much about his hand without further information. Many players, ourselves included, do this almost regardless of our hand as long as there aren't too many opponents. The size (half pot) is also suggestive of it being one of these "continuation bets", we can blame or thank Dan Harrington for that.

      This bet is raised by the minimum. Raising a continuation bet, especially in a pot which isn't heads up, usually means that the raiser has caught part of the flop. A player who does this with JQ is raising as a semi-bluff (he is likely behind now and would like to win the pot immediately but there are 8 cards in the deck which will give him the nuts if called and he can still win... win a much larger pot than the current one even because he has disguised his draw!) while a player who does this with 44, KT, down to maybe Kx or Tx depending on how fishy the player is intends his raise to be for value. He hopes that he will be called because he thinks he's the favourite.

      ...now that's not very helpful, so here's something which is: most players want top pair or better or a draw at least equivalent to a gut shot straight draw (the fish want this, better players want open ended ones) to continue beyond the flop. Kx is very, very likely if many Kx get here in the first place. Suited Kx in particular does, beginners overestimate how often they make flushes and love to play suited aces, suited kings, and in the worst cases any suited T or better or even any two suited. Off suit Kx is often played by weak players too, less than off suit Ax but pretty often. KT+ (suited or unsuited) is played in this position by virtually all players.

      The size of the raise doesn't necessarily mean much at NL5 where almost everyone's consistently underbetting or overbetting, so we'll not go into that. It's a play which practically guarantees a call, is cheap and doesn't bloat the pot, view that as you will. It depends on the psychology of the player in question.

      The bet on the turn practically rules out QJ, which was a possibility on the flop, from both players' hands (not that the big blind is relevant any more). With two callers and a good draw, any remotely decent player (the NL5 factor keeps biting us when trying to make rational assessments of play, but never mind) would not bet again when the high card pairs, he would instead check behind. Kx would probably bet, as betting your good but non-nut made hands is standard play, 44, K4 or KT might check behind in a poorly conceived slow play (so terribly common in the micro limits) as they have a virtual lock on the pot (yes, even 44, which you beat), KK likely would as he would now know that nobody has a K and desperately hopes that one of you will catch up a little on the river.

      The turn bet is unusually small, which again at NL5... but this is a little more reliable than the raise, it'll tend to either be a cheap shot at the pot with a hand of little value or a value bet with a very good hand.

      (Checking on the turn is okay because of the high likelihood of Kx, the low likelihood of anything else paying you and the possibility of other hands bluffing.)

      ...that was a bit rambling, and not all correct, and all I initially meant to do was point out how relatively unlikely it was that you were beaten and relatively likely that you were getting called by a worse hand. Maybe someone can extract the sense from here.

      Perhaps what you should take from this is that you really don't know that your opponent has one of the four hands that beat you, which can be made in 15 ways total (6 of which are 66, which is unlikely to get here). You really, really don't know. Nobody knows what their opponent is holding, especially if the opponent's playing style is unknown; sometimes they guess and sometime's they're right, but more often they're wrong, so what we have to say at the table is "He could have a whole bunch of holdings but I think this lot are more likely than these ones given the number of ways to make them and the action so far. If I bet, maybe he calls or folds with these holdings (mainly draws and weak made hands), or calls or raises with these (mainly draws, strong made hands or air looking to raise on another street if he calls), or raises or folds with these (draws and air). What kind of player is he and which will he tend towards for which classes of hand?"

      ...god, I'm rambling again. Someone stop me.
    • NYCSavage
      NYCSavage
      Bronze
      Joined: 17.08.2007 Posts: 35
      Wow!!! Thats a big post, thank you for taking the time for this excellant education. And the good news is that I understood most of what you was saying!!

      NL5 seems so far away from me right now, im sticking to the lower levels until I master this, it may only be for a few dollars here and there, but they all add up!!

      I do understand many parts of the game, and I spend a lot of time watching everyone and making notes.

      I was playing the night before last with pocket aces and looking at the flop, people was only calling or folding (all game they had been raising heavily on big hands. A few hands later, and I knew I had everyone beat with pair of T after the flop due to their betting styles. There was one girl who was in on every hand, I dont think she folded once in over 20 hands, very rarely she bet post flop but she only ever did so TT or better, what made it even better, she never ever mucked.
    • howard182
      howard182
      Bronze
      Joined: 30.10.2006 Posts: 416
      There was nothing excellent about that post, I was very tired. Unknown players, especially in information sparse hands (very little betting and raising and small bets/raises, especially when played close to the blinds) have very fuzzy ranges. You can go mad trying to actually assign one.

      An easier way to think about it is to consider your hand and your actions first, then ask what distribution he might need to make that action the most profitable. The only relevant hands are those which at least call one bet, those which beat you and those which bluff, the other hands contribute nothing to your EV. (Hands which are ahead but might fold are also a factor when bluffing, but in this case all the hands that are ahead are absolute monsters and aren't folding ever.)