[NL20-NL50] Classic Float ?

    • Dublimax
      Dublimax
      Bronze
      Joined: 22.11.2008 Posts: 2,233
      Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

      Play hand

      $0.1/$0.2 No-Limit Hold'em (5 handed)

      Known players:
      MP3 (Hero):
      $25.18
      CO:
      $21.58
      BU:
      $21.50
      SB:
      $20.90
      BB:
      $23.11


      Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A, K.
      Hero raises to $0.80, 2 folds, SB raises to $2.60, BB folds, Hero calls $1.80.

      Flop: ($5.4) 2, 9, 4 (2 players)
      SB bets $3.30, Hero calls $3.30.

      Turn: ($12) 8 (2 players)
      SB checks, Hero bets $8.00, SB folds, Hero gets uncalled bet back.

      Final Pot: $12.

      Villlain is VP:16/PR:13/AFq:100 over 45 hands

      I didnt think he would check the Turn with 88+.
      Good Float?
  • 13 replies
    • Shevtshenko
      Shevtshenko
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.12.2009 Posts: 4,087
      Uhhh...

      -Do you fold out any better hands? No.

      -Do you need to protect? No.

      -Can you valuebet? No.

      -Can you pick up the dead money? Yes.

      -If villain folds, did you have the best hand? Yes.

      I think you're risking way too much there, since if you bet you are propably bet/folding and you need 15% equity to bet/call with that stack- and betsize. If you want to just float there, bet small because 4-5$ would do the exact same job as 8$ does. You would propably bet smaller than 2/3 of pot if you had a valuehand also because you can anyway get the money in on river if you wish.

      Overall, don't really like that play.
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      Originally posted by Shevtshenko
      Uhhh...

      -Do you fold out any better hands? No.

      -Do you need to protect? No.

      -Can you valuebet? No.

      -Can you pick up the dead money? Yes.

      -If villain folds, did you have the best hand? Yes.

      I think you're risking way too much there, since if you bet you are propably bet/folding and you need 15% equity to bet/call with that stack- and betsize. If you want to just float there, bet small because 4-5$ would do the exact same job as 8$ does. You would propably bet smaller than 2/3 of pot if you had a valuehand also because you can anyway get the money in on river if you wish.

      Overall, don't really like that play.
      I would prefer 4-bet pf, but if you flat pf then yes it is standard float and I think also standard turn bet, why:
      - if he has there really 33 I think he is often going to c/f turn and you protect hands like QJ or flushdraws that are going to c/c. SO in gerneal I´d prefer betting turn than giving free card
    • Shevtshenko
      Shevtshenko
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.12.2009 Posts: 4,087
      Originally posted by Kaitz20


      I would prefer 4-bet pf, but if you flat pf then yes it is standard float and I think also standard turn bet, why:
      - if he has there really 33 I think he is often going to c/f turn and you protect hands like QJ or flushdraws that are going to c/c. SO in gerneal I´d prefer betting turn than giving free card
      It's utg vs. sb. Do you really think he's 3betting hero with 33 or QJ? Villain is playing 16/13.
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      Originally posted by Shevtshenko
      Originally posted by Kaitz20


      I would prefer 4-bet pf, but if you flat pf then yes it is standard float and I think also standard turn bet, why:
      - if he has there really 33 I think he is often going to c/f turn and you protect hands like QJ or flushdraws that are going to c/c. SO in gerneal I´d prefer betting turn than giving free card
      It's utg vs. sb. Do you really think he's 3betting hero with 33 or QJ? Villain is playing 16/13.
      probably not, but you can´t said that with 100% that he can´t 3-bet these hands
      Anyway I think he´d c/f there quite often and even if he c/c we can consider bluffing river. So I don´t see any reason why to give him free card that can improve his hand. If river is Q or J we can´t really be sure if he is bluffing or valuebetting if he´d c/f turn AJ/AQ to our river bet
    • Shevtshenko
      Shevtshenko
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.12.2009 Posts: 4,087
      So for you it'd be bet/fold on turn? Still don't get that. If villain has AJ/AQ he's got 3 outs and I still doubt that villain with 16/13 is ever 3betting hands like QJ vs. utg or in 5max oop.

      Still don't think that the risk-reward is even close to good enough on turn with that betsize.
    • mrxLT
      mrxLT
      Silver
      Joined: 02.09.2008 Posts: 435
      Originally posted by Shevtshenko
      So for you it'd be bet/fold on turn? Still don't get that. If villain has AJ/AQ he's got 3 outs and I still doubt that villain with 16/13 is ever 3betting hands like QJ vs. utg or in 5max oop.

      Still don't think that the risk-reward is even close to good enough on turn with that betsize.
      +1
      best scenario for us: he will fold AK on the turn
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      Originally posted by Shevtshenko
      So for you it'd be bet/fold on turn? Still don't get that. If villain has AJ/AQ he's got 3 outs and I still doubt that villain with 16/13 is ever 3betting hands like QJ vs. utg or in 5max oop.

      Still don't think that the risk-reward is even close to good enough on turn with that betsize.
      Problem checking back turn is that villain would often see that as weakness and might bluff himself on blank river. Are you willing to call down if river is Td or even blank 3h. We beat still AJ/AQ hand, but since he thinks we he doesn´t have enough showdown value and since we didn´t bet turn, he thinks he can get us fold smt like 66. So I´d prefer showing aggression and taking pot down on the turn which would happen very often unless I have reason to think villain would c/c or c/rai there
    • N0pr3s3n7
      N0pr3s3n7
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 14.05.2009 Posts: 1,275
      Originally posted by Kaitz20
      Originally posted by Shevtshenko
      So for you it'd be bet/fold on turn? Still don't get that. If villain has AJ/AQ he's got 3 outs and I still doubt that villain with 16/13 is ever 3betting hands like QJ vs. utg or in 5max oop.

      Still don't think that the risk-reward is even close to good enough on turn with that betsize.
      Problem checking back turn is that villain would often see that as weakness and might bluff himself on blank river. Are you willing to call down if river is Td or even blank 3h. We beat still AJ/AQ hand, but since he thinks we he doesn´t have enough showdown value and since we didn´t bet turn, he thinks he can get us fold smt like 66. So I´d prefer showing aggression and taking pot down on the turn which would happen very often unless I have reason to think villain would c/c or c/rai there
      +1

      Better bet turn instead of calling river.
    • N0pr3s3n7
      N0pr3s3n7
      Coach
      Coach
      Joined: 14.05.2009 Posts: 1,275
      Originally posted by N0pr3s3n7
      Originally posted by Kaitz20
      Originally posted by Shevtshenko
      So for you it'd be bet/fold on turn? Still don't get that. If villain has AJ/AQ he's got 3 outs and I still doubt that villain with 16/13 is ever 3betting hands like QJ vs. utg or in 5max oop.

      Still don't think that the risk-reward is even close to good enough on turn with that betsize.
      Problem checking back turn is that villain would often see that as weakness and might bluff himself on blank river. Are you willing to call down if river is Td or even blank 3h. We beat still AJ/AQ hand, but since he thinks we he doesn´t have enough showdown value and since we didn´t bet turn, he thinks he can get us fold smt like 66. So I´d prefer showing aggression and taking pot down on the turn which would happen very often unless I have reason to think villain would c/c or c/rai there
      +1

      Better bet turn instead of calling river.Also need protection against T,J,Q,any diamond so there are many card we don't want to see.Also if villian just pot controls with TT,JJ or somehand he has already showdown value with that beats ours we better bet turn instead of calling any river.
    • Shevtshenko
      Shevtshenko
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.12.2009 Posts: 4,087
      Better bet turn instead of calling river.Also need protection against T,J,Q,any diamond so there are many card we don't want to see.Also if villian just pot controls with TT,JJ or somehand he has already showdown value with that beats ours we better bet turn instead of calling any river.


      We lose more if we bet turn vs. TT or JJ. We've got six out vs. them if we check back and he can't really just shove any river for value with TT or JJ (or better, we don't need to call if he just shoves).

      If I'd feel that villain oftentimes has smth like 66 (which I still strongly think that he's betting on turn for protection and value (AFq 100%). He's propably not betting the river with it, since there really are like two worse hands possible to hero call with worse (AK and 55). And out of those 55 would be pretty lousy call pre and would usually protect on turn.

      So nearly everyone thinks that we should bet the turn and the reasoning behind that is that we're both protecting vs. AQ/AJ and bluffing vs. 77-55 and 33. I don't think that such a villain, especially against hero who is flatting AK vs. villains oop 3bet (meaning hero is playing tag/nit style), is ever 3betting small pockets vs. utg or because he wants to setmine with those.

      I strongly still prefer checking behind on turn and snapping of a river bluff on any river.

      We beat still AJ/AQ hand, but since he thinks we he doesn´t have enough showdown value and since we didn´t bet turn, he thinks he can get us fold smt like 66.


      That's why we bluff induce and snap him off on river unless he's overbetting which is super rarely a bluff on these stakes.


      edit: and if we bet turn are we bet/folding?
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      Originally posted by Shevtshenko



      edit: and if we bet turn are we bet/folding?
      yes

      AS I said before you´re fine to check back turn, but consider our equity smt like 7%, which likely can be his 3-bet range:

      ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation
      42,240 trials (Exhaustive)
      board: 2:diamond: 9:spade: 4:diamond: 8:heart:
      AK 44.18% (15,576 wins, 6,174 ties)
      7% 55.82% (20,490 wins, 6,174 ties)

      we really don´t have that much equity that we would like to go to showdown, so I think there is quite a lot sense to bet turn and take pot down. If you think checking back turn and then deciding river if you want to call or not is fine, but I think we can´t really profitable call most rivers so better either try taking pot down on the turn or if get called consider bluffing on the river.
    • Shevtshenko
      Shevtshenko
      Bronze
      Joined: 06.12.2009 Posts: 4,087
      Ok, thanks for explanations.

      I don't mind our equity since vs. AJs+, 99+, KQ we have a flip and that already semi-loose 3betting range oop, although I don't really expect anyone to 3bet just topX% of hands unless he's a nit and 3betting QQ+.

      If villain is 3betting smthing like 54s he might c/f that on turn, so there might be some better combos he's folding. Don't see any FE on river, since pot is 28$ and we've got ~6$ behind after betting 8$ on turn.
    • Kaitz20
      Kaitz20
      Bronze
      Joined: 02.02.2007 Posts: 27,343
      Originally posted by Shevtshenko
      Ok, thanks for explanations.

      I don't mind our equity since vs. AJs+, 99+, KQ we have a flip and that already semi-loose 3betting range oop, although I don't really expect anyone to 3bet just topX% of hands unless he's a nit and 3betting QQ+.

      If villain is 3betting smthing like 54s he might c/f that on turn, so there might be some better combos he's folding. Don't see any FE on river, since pot is 28$ and we've got ~6$ behind after betting 8$ on turn.
      damn, forgot stack sizes.
      I think hero can b/f turn if he bets 6$, then pot is smaller and we have bigger fold equity on the river, although if get called I think likely he´d also call once again on the river, so then going to showdown seems better plan