[Closed] NL100 AKo another preflop spot

fold vs unknown i guess although i dont think 4b/call is too bad.

why don´t you like calling? You have position. The original raiser can fold (and if he calls, he has PP or SCs or AK) or raise (which gives you still reasonable fold) but he does not raise very often because he would need to have KK+. That leaves you vs 3bettor in position.

I think 4bet sucks because if UTG shoves, you will hate yourself that you 4betted. And you will hate yourself even if 3bettor shoves because you just isolated against his top range.

btw fold may be the best I don´t know.

I think something like:

call =or> fold >>>>>> 4bet

That's 7-handed. So HJvsCOvsBU vs. any reads on people being aggressive I'd like to see a 4b/c. If the pfr is a nit and his fold vs. 3b is high, then you can turn your hand into a bluff and cold4b/f imo.

4b/f?

@cornie: VS 3bettor's top range which i believe is KK+, isn't it slightly reverse implied to call since we may not be good even if we hit and if we hit A vs his KK we wont extract enough for it to be a profitable call? we also give good odds for UTG to setmine and AK doesnt play too well in 3way. it would also suck if we call and UTG 4bets{very profitable spot since coldcaller of 3bet is almost never strong enough to call a 4bet and we got more dead $ to win vs just 3bettor(w/o coldcaller) with the same amount of resistance(3bettor is the only one with the possible strong hand to go AI)}

dont think 3bettor can go in with anything worse than kk+ since we 4bet a 3betvsUTG. it's better to try to win dead $ and if we get reraised, we got a easy fold.

Originally posted by supeyrio
@cornie: VS 3bettor's top range which i believe is KK+, isn't it slightly reverse implied to call since we may not be good even if we hit and if we hit A vs his KK we wont extract enough for it to be a profitable call? we also give good odds for UTG to setmine and AK doesnt play too well in 3way. it would also suck if we call and UTG 4bets{very profitable spot since coldcaller of 3bet is almost never strong enough to call a 4bet and we got more dead $ to win vs just 3bettor(w/o coldcaller) with the same amount of resistance(3bettor is the only one with the possible strong hand to go AI)}

yeah, agree with your points, it is a tough spot. On the other hand

(i) you hold AK which blocks some combos of AA,KK

(ii) in case he has AA, there is only one A you can hit (reduced risk), but there are three K (which is dangerous, agree, you can possibly pay him off 3x on all streets). If he has KK, there is almost no risk of reverse implied odds.

(iii) If he is unknown you should assume that he is 3betting his top range, but frequently enough also hands which are playable but not enough good for call (SCs, AJs) where you are favourite.

(iv) you will surely play the hand cautiously and will use your position, which can grant a lot of value to you. He will surely try to represent A or K on Axx Kxx flops so you always call his Cbet. Then the turn he can second barrel (easy call for you) or it goes checked and you may get one more value street on river. There is surely nice value in AK IP, I like calling a lot.

in other words, you are good player, possibly better than he is and you have one of TOP5 combinations in position. I would not fold it.

Originally posted by Hajler

Hello!

I appologize for the really short hand
There's nothing to apologize for, the forums are there so you can obtain opinions on spots that gave you trouble!
, but this spot has me confused. Both players are unknown which is the cause of my problem - if I knew the guy who 3-bet was an agressive reg/had some history I could 4-bet/call, and if he was a nit I could fold. Here if I 4-bet I feel like I'm turning my hand into a bluff as I really don't like my hand anymore if I get shoved on, and I don't think I can just call a 3-bet either. That leaves folding, which sucks. What would you do here?
Let's start with what I wouldn't do: coldcall the 3bet. The reason is, that it's impossible to balance (you can never call hands like 8 here) and in fact when people coldcall a 3bet I always put them on a range of {TT-QQ, maybe AK} and I'm correct the vast majority of the time.

Regarding the question of whether to 4bet or to fold: I'm a nit so I'd fold ♦.

On a bit more serious note: I think it can not be very +EV to 4bet/call in any case. The reason is, that against a 4%-5% range we're actually not doing too well:
Hold'em Simulation
924,644,160 trials (Exhaustive)
Hand Equity Wins Ties
ako 44.92% 322,602,576 185,402,736
5% 55.08% 416,638,848 185,402,736

Hold'em Simulation
739,715,328 trials (Exhaustive)
Hand Equity Wins Ties
ako 42.87% 226,021,668 182,186,676
4% 57.13% 331,506,984 182,186,676

You could argue that he folds some of those so we can take down some deadmoney sometimes. While this is correct, we also get the money in with even worse equity.

On balance we can either make a very slight +EV play or his 3bettingrange is only something like 2%-3% in which case we have a clear -EV-4bet.

Therefore I'd fold.

Sorry if this is a stupid question,
It's not!
thanks!

Edit: You might want to have a look at this thread as well.

would turning the hand into a bluff be an option. I realize that if we think villian is shoving QQ+, AK we have to 4b/call (pot odds). say villian only shoves with KK+ but has quite a few bluff hands in his range? Lets also assume he folds QQ and AK to a cold 4b which is very possible from a FR nit. Then wouldnt a 4b/fold make sense considering the 4b itself has alot of FE+we have the blockers.

Hello!

Thanks for all the really interesting discussion and good advice. I ended up 4-bet folding in this spot, thinking the same thing i5bet72o wrote above.

Thanks again.

Originally posted by i5bet72o
would turning the hand into a bluff be an option. I realize that if we think villian is shoving QQ+, AK we have to 4b/call (pot odds). say villian only shoves with KK+ but has quite a few bluff hands in his range? Lets also assume he folds QQ and AK to a cold 4b which is very possible from a FR nit. Then wouldnt a 4b/fold make sense considering the 4b itself has alot of FE+we have the blockers.

In this case it can be ok, but if he's that nitty when it comes to shipping, the question I'd ask myself would be if he's maybe even too nitty to 3bet QQ and AK in the first place. If he'd just call them IP vs an UTG-open and doesn't 3betbluff, there's obv no foldequity (and no potequity).