109$, do we go broke with KK vs. unknown?

hmm why we dont go broke on flop?

Originally posted by bonebt
hmm why we dont go broke on flop?

yep thinking this , cant realy see what he has beating you apart from QQ

Originally posted by curnow

Originally posted by bonebt
hmm why we dont go broke on flop?

yep thinking this , cant realy see what he has beating you apart from QQ

Well, 66 and 44 obviously. It's just that going broke here makes me rely on the notion of villain playing top pair on a non-drawy board like a proper retard.

i think its well played. i don't like to get it in on the flop. some villains could fold qj or kq which they misplayed big on that board. don't let them fold those hands here! so keep worse hands in the hand here and c/r the turn is fine!
btw on a 109$ buyin if you get raised like that on the flop its totally ugly suck suck suck spot! you're often beat already by 44, 66!
but since villain is unknown what shall we do

Originally posted by Tiltberger
i think its well played. i don't like to get it in on the flop. some villains could fold qj or kq which they misplayed big on that board. don't let them fold those hands here! so keep worse hands in the hand here and c/r the turn is fine!
btw on a 109$ buyin if you get raised like that on the flop its totally ugly suck suck suck spot! you're often beat already by 44, 66!
but since villain is unknown what shall we do

Ok, tx, he had AQo, but it still gave me this feeling you describe (ugly sucksucksuck, it's like you're a mindreader ^^).

There is really only one way to describe his thinking in this hand, and that is:

preflop: "oh, look at that, pretty pictures, I should raise"

On the flop: "oh look at that, the picture on the flop matches the picture in my hand, i should raise"

On the turn: "oh my, look at that, the picture on the flop still matches the picture in my hand, I should bet"

It's level 0 thinking, he's not thinking about what I could have at all, it's like playing poker against a 7year old, I posted this hand because I wondered whether you could still put unknown on such a lack of basic understanding of the game on this limit, but apparently it's ok. If him having top pair was a total fluke that'd typically never happen Tiltberger would've said so literally I think.

Originally posted by helemaalnicks

Originally posted by curnow

Originally posted by bonebt
hmm why we dont go broke on flop?

yep thinking this , cant realy see what he has beating you apart from QQ

Well, 66 and 44 obviously. It's just that going broke here makes me rely on the notion of villain playing top pair on a non-drawy board like a proper retard.

and why should villain bet top pair on turn or raise on that flop? if he is not bad?

i dont think that villain like ever has QQ there when he raise you on flop
i think his range whne he raise u on flop is something like AK+/AQ+/AJs /44-JJ/AA KQs/QJs/QTs so I dont realy like him to hit that 2-5 outer for free so shoving on flop or just clicking back so he can spew is best imo

if u call flop u r going broke on most turns obv except q/a so imo thats why best is to get it in on flop shove or click it back and let him hero call u or spew (which he will with all of Q imo cos he raise flop and obv his though process is I have TP prob is good here + sometimes hero call/bluff shove with 77-JJ thinking u have tt/JJ-AK type of hand)

i dont like flat cos any descent/competent player will ch turn behind most of the times as played, with bluffs and nuts, (if he raise your Cbet with AK+/AQ+/AJs /44-JJ/AA KQs/QJs/QTs range) u will have tough spot on almost every river

if i decide to flat flop which i dont like from above reasons, i'll lead turn like 35%-40% pot and call a shove, i dont like stack the donkey line (bet/call flop- ch/rAI turn) here at all

I don't get it, be clear please. You wanna raise for protection or value on the flop?

I probably made a mistake calling villain 'unknown'. I think he is known, because whatever he's holding, the raise on the flop is bad, hence, villain is bad. So playing as I did was actually pretty standard.

I like the way it is played, such a big raise to me says "I want to get this pot over and done with". If it was a bit smaller raise, THEN its a sucky spot for me

Originally posted by helemaalnicks
I don't get it, be clear please. You wanna raise for protection or value on the flop?

I probably made a mistake calling villain 'unknown'. I think he is known, because whatever he's holding, the raise on the flop is bad, hence, villain is bad. So playing as I did was actually pretty standard.

value + protection
value - cos he is bad and u will get his $$ any way if he likes his hand and is not on total air
protection + value + inducing spew - vs his weaker/bluffing range like JJ/TT,AK and stuff

i mean your hand is pretty much face up whit your line pre and on that flop so I cant see descent villain betting very often on turn

if u had read that villain is bad before hand that is little different and your line makes more sense but i prefer to lead on turn to build pot or just click it back on flop cos he wont realize that u had him crush and he will call cos dont know what to do + is cheap and to see what happens on turn and he will have like 2/3 of pot left behind and u can just lead like 1/3 pot and suck him in

also u realize that JJ had u beat now too no turn and is not hard to me to imagine hat villain will take that line with JJ

BTW as played what would u do on river if villain check behind on turn if river is not J,6,4,K ?
so scenario 1)
Q64r
J (ch/ch)
A,Q,T,9,8,7,5,3,2 hero?

-what would u do if turn was Q/A and villain bet again? or plans for river if villain check behind and river came T/J ?

scenario 2)
Q64r
A/Q (ch/villain bet again) hero?

scenario 2a)
Q64r
A/Q(ch/ch)
J/T hero?

Originally posted by bonebt

Originally posted by helemaalnicks
I don't get it, be clear please. You wanna raise for protection or value on the flop?

I probably made a mistake calling villain 'unknown'. I think he is known, because whatever he's holding, the raise on the flop is bad, hence, villain is bad. So playing as I did was actually pretty standard.

value + protection
value - cos he is bad and u will get his $$ any way if he likes his hand and is not on total air
protection + value + inducing spew - vs his weaker/bluffing range like JJ/TT,AK and stuff

i mean your hand is pretty much face up whit your line pre and on that flop so I cant see descent villain betting very often on turn

if u had read that villain is bad before hand that is little different and your line makes more sense but i prefer to lead on turn to build pot or just click it back on flop cos he wont realize that u had him crush and he will call cos dont know what to do + is cheap and to see what happens on turn and he will have like 2/3 of pot left behind and u can just lead like 1/3 pot and suck him in

also u realize that JJ had u beat now too no turn and is not hard to me to imagine hat villain will take that line with JJ

BTW as played what would u do on river if villain check behind on turn if river is not J,6,4,K ?
so scenario 1)
Q64r
J (ch/ch)
A,Q,T,9,8,7,5,3,2 hero?

-what would u do if turn was Q/A and villain bet again? or plans for river if villain check behind and river came T/J ?

scenario 2)
Q64r
A/Q (ch/villain bet again) hero?

scenario 2a)
Q64r
A/Q(ch/ch)
J/T hero?

You realize that if villain is a decent player my line is extremely fishy, right? Villain is not a decent player, his raise (not before the hand, as you said) says he is a bad player.

Now you're coming up with all those scenario's, while it's actually pretty simple, Q sux and A sux, the rest is totally fine imo, turn cb won't happen, cause villain is a level 0 player, so his hand will be as strong on the turn as on the flop. I'd even argue my line looks like a draw or a weakish pair (77-TT) or AK even (I'm sure you've heard it before, haven't we all? "I put you on AK"). Not from our perspective, but from our perspective we are never EVER raising the flop, so our perspective is irrelevant. I think you're making the mistake of putting our opponent on a brain.

If he has JJ, and raised that on the flop, then that's fine. I really don't mind losing against that line (well, I wouldn't be like, hurrah, I got stacked by a fish, I love poker so much, what an awesome game), in the long term there is no problem with stacking off against that line. If he has AJ and raises flop, again, fine by me, if he wants to play like a numbnut, I'm happy to pay him off.

u dint get my point
i'm just saying that if villain is bad best chance to play for stacks is to click back flop or shove or as played to lead turn

your line never looks like draw cos there arent any draws and and your hand only looks like PP and if he don't think that u r donk ur range is pretty much AA-KK imo

yea, cos he is 0 level thinker thats why he can think that jj/tt or any pp can be good on flop if u click it back (form his perspective u look like AK or weakish PP and u r reraising for info) and he will happly put his $$ in on flop turn can came bad card for his hand and he might get scared and u wont stack him

dont get me wrong i dont think that your line is bad vs fish cos whatever u do you'll get your stacks in vs bad players till river most of the times, i just dont think that your line is optimal in this spot and against unknown (readless) in that buy in I think is bad and u got owned very often

They barely have odds to set mine so its an ugly spot. I play it the same as you did vs an unknown expecting to see alot of aq and sets with a few random hands.

No need to take the bet initive away from a spew tard and get it in on the flop when they are gonna bet the turn for you and grantee you their money having maybe 8 outs on the turn and river.