Skip to forum
Notifications
Clear all

A4s vs SB steal: unimproved on the flop.

9 Posts
4 Users
0 Reactions
2,351 Views

Here's an interesting hand that came up during the coaching which generated a lot of discussion. Mainly, we were deciding about whether or not to peel the flop on this board texture.

Villain seems TAG, but I have just ~15 hands on him at this point and no notes.

$0.25/$0.5 Fixed-Limit Hold'em (4 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 4:d, A:d.
2 folds, SB raises, Hero calls.

Our opponent seems TAG, but I have very few hands on him. On average I sort of expect to see a ~40% hand range like this:

Spoiler

22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q5s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, 76s, A2o+, K5o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o

Flop: (4 SB) 5:h, 8:s, Q:s (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

  • So the flop comes down pretty coordinated. 97s, 76s, JT, J9... These hands all have straight draws with decent equity. There is also a flush draw and roughly 6% of his hand range is made up of flush draws.
  • Against the range I've given him I have 35% equity. I think this makes it a marginal fold. This player seems somewhat tight. If we were up against a more loose opponent it gets closer to a call. I would want closer to 38% equity to call in position with weak SD value, but I'm curious to see what people think.
  • Now, our discussion during the coaching actually had a lot to do with making mistakes. Particularly, mistakes that are likely to come up when bad turn and river cards fall.
  • Below I've included a turn card analysis output from Equilab. What we can see is that actually 22/47 remaining cards give us 35% equity or higher. We'll be getting 5:2 to call down from the turn which means that if our opponent were to barrel 100% then 2/7=~30% equity is enough to justify calling the turn to show down UI on river cards that give us the correct equity and occasionally playing for value if we improve enough to justify a raise.
  • Now, he won't always barrel the turn & river. When he gives up that saves us money and we are getting a slight overlay on our turn call if we continue with 35% equity. We do need to be careful though. If I am giving up by the river too often then our initial investment on the flop may not turn out to be profitable. I think we can call the flop with more equity and against an opponent we know well - which again suggests that folding the flop in my case was best.
  • On the same token, many of the turn cards which are bad for us are clearly bad, like any 9-K, especially the :spade: s. We're not likely to make a mistake and call on these cards. Further, our opponent might not always bet the turn on these card. If we do call on the turn incorrectly in other spots we can make a mistake, but if we do make a mistake its significantly smaller on average.
  • When we compare these small losses to the money we can make by improving to a 4♥/:club:, any remaining Ace, or a back door straight we can actually induce mistakes from our opponent and get some value. This value can make up for those small mistakes (which we can of course work hard to avoid making).

tl;dr

We may have a marginal fold on the flop here because I suspect our opponent is tight. If we know our opponent better and he's slightly more loose then we can peel the flop. There are many difficult turn cards, but if we make good decisions we can continue profitably. Using the Equilab Scenario Analyzer its relatively straight forward to evaluate when we should probably continue and when we should probably fold.


Reply
Quote
8 replies
YohanN7
Joined: 15.06.2009

Haven't given the above the thought it deserves. Still, as an alternative to calling, how about this line: We raise on the flop (yes, we turn our A high into a bluff!) and bet the turn?

I don't like the flop, but neither should our opponent if he missed it. If he has a draw, he will be forced to pay the maximum. A couple of bigger aces might fold unimproved on the turn. Certainly, some gutshots would fold*). The investment is 2 BB as opposed to 2.5 with the call-call-call line. I don'e see us barreling the river with many cards - or calling a raise on the turn.

If our opponent is gutsy enough to blow us off on the turn with a draw, then hats off to him.

Just a thought. Folding isn't bad either. Calling just seems like the most difficult option because we don't have any relevant reads.

EDIT: Point number five above is important. There was a good video on this a couple of months ago, i.e. less required flop equity for a call due to possible check on the turn. Think it was Opabumbi.

*) This is not necessarily good for us in EV-terms, but it makes things easier against a good opponent.

/Johan = :f_confused:


Reply
Quote

Its nice to see that you're willing to consider alternatives. I will say that a semi-bluff range which includes this hand is likely to lose us money. On this board ill have a lot of draws that semibluff. If we turn this hand into a bluff then we can end up having tons of bluffs and our opponent will profit. He also hits this board well. Against his hand range we're basically flipping preflop, but my equity has dropped to 35% here. Most of that 35% is because of my A-high SD value.

Difficult is ok as long as we're prepared and up to the task. If its the most valuable option then we should take it.


Reply
Quote
Dawnfall26
Joined: 30.07.2008

Hi!

Right of the bat I would say that your assumption of his preflop range is quite tight and even if you knew him very well as a TAG I would make it wider.TAGs are opening around 40% on the button and on Sb they definatelly go wider at least around 50% but mostly even 60%+ otherwise I would not call him TAG but a bad rocky player

...but that is not the point of this hand though...

...first I would dismiss the idea of raising this flop as bluff since its pretty bad,we have 0 fold equity since 0 better hands will fold on this drawheavy flop but we will encounter ton of Ahigh+ calldowns.Sure they can fold gutshots,Khigh,... but we are not really bluffing these hands,we are protecting against these,...

...so if we raise we are kindda doing it for value/protection but this also is not optimal on this board with hand like Ax where we will not make a lot to fold but at the same time we can expect counter action often and then decitions may not really be easy as they can be rebluffing us easily on such board knowing we do have a ton of draws here ,protection is also not a mayor issue in such cases since it is not so important to protect hand that is behind in equity and our hand here clearly is even if his range is 70%... we would actually preffer to let those hands bluff and inducing becomes much more valuable

...so its actually about to call with intention of calling down(maybe raising turn for freeSD but goal is similar) or to fold thinking we are behind too often

...and we come to the equity analyses which datsmahname did very well...if you put your oponent on the range that you descrived and have 35% equity it should be the default fold...but exceptions an be made where I take these facotors into consideration...

1)equity must be around 37% +- 2 - here its on the bottom end so this one doesnt favour us very much

2)our oponent - our oponent is relatively unknown(no exploitable reads except that he might be bit more weakish on later streets which may be slightly positive for us) ,TAGgy looking(meaning prolly thinking therefore not good for us)

3)what do we expect to happen on this board - board is very drawheavy and since its Sb vs bb I would expect a lot of double or posibly triple barells from various draws which is bad for us and even if we get a check on the turn its most often gonna be a hand that will want to see SD and with A4 that is again not that good

...so I would go for fold and be happy about it and would do it even with 37 - 38 % equity,board is just bad for our hand and our hand is filled with very few implied odds if we hit but very much reversed ones,not saying its a terrible call but fold is my prefferance


Reply
Quote

Right, I would definitely recommend stealing more than 40%. TAG might suggest that he has certain tendencies but he only seems TAG and such players at these stakes don't steal as much.

Against an unknown I really like to use the average for the stakes. He's tight so we look at the average SB open raise stat for players at these stakes with VPIP from ~20-27.

Hm2 is not cooperating - they've changed things in the player analysis section that drive me crazy - but I expect that a 40% ATS is going to be close to right at .25/.50 for tight guys who are aggressive when they play.


Reply
Quote
YohanN7
Joined: 15.06.2009

I was clearly wrong seing raising as an option. [Minutes before I wrote that I had folded straight playing heads up. Thats how smart I am. (No I wasn't extremely tight, just misread the board. ?()]. Where I was completely off, of course, was that gutshots + Ax , where x is remotely foldable, aren't a big enough part of his range. Besides, we would be wasting an A high.

A technical point. Suppose that villain does in fact have a gutshot. What is the best scenario? If he 3-barrels 100% it's clearly good for us provided that we call down 100%. If he folds to a turn bet/raise from us it's very good too. He would fold 10 outs getting 6:1 or more. The big problems arise if he bets flop and turn and then checks X% of the rivers where we don't know what X is.

I think I'll make a little caluculation later to try to figure out what the optimal strategy against that part of villains range is because it might be useful in other situations. This ought to be fairly opponent neutral, unless that X above is close to 0% or 100%.

/Johan = :f_confused:


Reply
Quote

you're wrong about the raise, but your approach is right and thats way more valuable.

A4s is a certain type of hand. marginal SD value and probably worse hands fold to a bluff raise. when we can sort out why this hand is regularly not the kind of hand we want to bluff with then it helps to sort out when bluffing is appropriate and when it isn't.

in some way you manage to ask "why not raise" with the borderline type of hand. its a good question.


Reply
Quote
ZeroDegrees
Joined: 03.06.2008

Hi dat!
I'm checking out your coaching and forum, hence the late post to this hand. In my eyes this is a clear 3-bet preflop. My experience when I just call these hands my opponent can push me out on flops like this one. Usually Im ahead pre, both misses bad, but he can use his initiative to push me out. Hope to see you tonight at your coaching!


Reply
Quote

yeah 3-betting is a good option a lot. If we're up against a 50% range then we're a favourite.


Reply
Quote