How do I into cash game?

Here's something that I'd like to get some feedback on from you guys.

Most of the time I play only 1-2 tables because I like to watch every hand people play and take notes on how they act with certain cards (how they play draws, sets, and so on) as well as their bet sizing and stuff like that. Doing this really helps for making moves that I'd otherwise miss if I was playing more tables. Sounds good, right?

But then: I'm not sure how much difference it really makes at NL10. I mean, most guys are either playing in such a style that one moment they're limp/shoving KJo and the next they're flatting AA and slow playing all that; or they're tight as anything playing 5+ tables and not making many fancy plays. In both cases, learning how they play doesn't seem to get me anywhere.

So the question is this: At NL10, should I bother playing less tables with more note taking; or should I add more tables and grind it safely ABC ("fold to raises") till I got the BR to play at NL25+? Is there any value in making lots of notes on guys that aren't really thinking that much?

Maybe the best thing would be to mix it up: some days only a single table, and on others 4? Who knows.

sup Ains. i'll definitely be following - i recently started playing nl10 SH and also plan to play ~1k hands a day and get out of nl10 soon etc etc. its really good that you have the discipline to play only 1-2 tables (must take ages to get 1k hands!) but i also agree with you that some play is so erratic that you may take a note on something and then they will play completely different in a similar spot. i tend to play 4-6 tables cos i get bored easily but sometimes i might play less - i guess it's all down to personal preference.

i think you should find a happy medium that allows you to watch *enough* to categorise your main opponents and maybe take notes if things stand out - as well as getting in some volume. what i found was i was taking notes on players and they were really good notes, but then i never see those players again. with that said it is good practice! ♦

Lewis.

p.s. what site are you playing?

I wouldn't play on only one to two tables.

As you will probably be playing a pretty basic ABC style volume won't be a problem. I play NL10 SH on 888 and Stars and manage pretty easily with twelve multi-platform tables.

Leave the studying for pokerstrategy and focus on volume and profit at the table.

Originally posted by DrDunne
sup Ains. i'll definitely be following - i recently started playing nl10 SH and also plan to play ~1k hands a day and get out of nl10 soon etc etc. its really good that you have the discipline to play only 1-2 tables (must take ages to get 1k hands!) but i also agree with you that some play is so erratic that you may take a note on something and then they will play completely different in a similar spot. i tend to play 4-6 tables cos i get bored easily but sometimes i might play less - i guess it's all down to personal preference.

i think you should find a happy medium that allows you to watch *enough* to categorise your main opponents and maybe take notes if things stand out - as well as getting in some volume. what i found was i was taking notes on players and they were really good notes, but then i never see those players again. with that said it is good practice! ♦

Lewis.

p.s. what site are you playing?

Hey Lewis, cheers for the response. Just checked out your blog and will be following --- what uni did you go to btw? Looks like we're in similar positions heh. To be honest I think I've kinda got all I'm going to get from watching the fish and regs at NL10 closely: I will try playing some more tables to get the volume in. If you ever want to discuss hands mate give me a message. We'll be crushing NL100 by the end of the year right (put those degrees to good use).

Oh and I play partypoker at the moment, but only until I grind off the deposit bonus then I'll move on to another bonus (just broken even over 25k hands, and the bonus gives me little boost).

Originally posted by BObamaJr

I wouldn't play on only one to two tables.

As you will probably be playing a pretty basic ABC style volume won't be a problem. I play NL10 SH on 888 and Stars and manage pretty easily with twelve multi-platform tables.

Leave the studying for pokerstrategy and focus on volume and profit at the table.

Yeah you're completely right. The new arrangement will be more time at PS.com on hand evaluation and videos, and more volume at NL10.

Cheers for advice both!~

I'm currently playing 10nl fullring, but have played alot of SH aswell and taking shots at 16NL, at pokerstars. Something you will find very useful i think are the quizes and columns at the bottom of the strategy page that i think alot of people overlook.

They have proved to be very useful, not only do you get a chance to offer what you'd honestly do at the table ( they give u stats of the playersa and everything), then there is seperate answers depending on what your choice of action was, it tells you what play is best and why after you choose.

Take a look anyway, it will certainly help alot.

Originally posted by Vip3rNZ
I'm currently playing 10nl fullring, but have played alot of SH aswell and taking shots at 16NL, at pokerstars. Something you will find very useful i think are the quizes and columns at the bottom of the strategy page that i think alot of people overlook.

They have proved to be very useful, not only do you get a chance to offer what you'd honestly do at the table ( they give u stats of the playersa and everything), then there is seperate answers depending on what your choice of action was, it tells you what play is best and why after you choose.

Take a look anyway, it will certainly help alot.

Brilliant thank you I've never noticed them. Will add those quizzes into my learning time. GL with your shots at NL16.

Couple of hands here I want to get some opinions on after playing a short session today (+4BI though, good times).

(1)

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.10(BB) Replayer
SB ($8.75)
BB ($10.96)
UTG ($10.72)
Hero ($21.04)
CO ($9.65)
BTN ($15.17)

Dealt to Hero 5♠ 5♥

UTG calls $0.10, Hero raises to $0.40, fold, fold, fold, BB calls $0.30, UTG calls $0.30

FLOP ($1.25) 5♣ A♠ J♥

BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets $0.80, BB calls $0.80, UTG folds

TURN ($2.85) 5♣ A♠ J♥ 2♣

BB checks, Hero bets $2, BB calls $2

RIVER ($6.85) 5♣ A♠ J♥ 2♣ Q♠

BB bets $3.25, Hero raises to $17.84 (AI), BB calls $4.51 (AI)

Villain is playing 29/21 5.0 3b and 0.7 AF.

Do you think this river is always a value shove? When he donks out at river he's obviously super strong since he's normally such a passive player; but it just seems to me that there's so many more AQ/AJ in his range than JJ since with 5.0 3b I think often he is 3bing JJ OOP pre-flop. I didn't think too hard about shoving here.

---------------

(2)

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.10(BB) Replayer
SB ($10.37)
BB ($14.97)
Hero ($22.16)
UTG+1 ($4.36)
CO ($11.06)
BTN ($15.36)

Dealt to Hero K♣ K♥

Hero raises to $0.40, fold, fold, BTN calls $0.40, SB raises to $1.60, fold, Hero raises to $4.50, fold, SB raises to $10.37 (AI), Hero calls $5.87

FLOP ($21.24) 5♥ T♦ 2♠

TURN ($21.24) 5♥ T♦ 2♠ 4♠

RIVER ($21.24) 5♥ T♦ 2♠ 4♠ 7♥

Villain is playing 22/20 0.0 3b and low AF over 80 hands.

When the SB squeezes here I'm pretty worried: it's his first 3bet at the table (over 80 hands) and he's been totally passive up until this point. But what can I do? I mean, AK and QQ are still in his range right, despite his passivity? I had a bad feeling about it, but folding was just too weak and I didn't feel like flatting and giving BU good odds for a call IP. And 4b/folding seems pretty stupid here. Am I ever folding? These spots seem to cost me a lot: I get my kings and I get 3 or 4 bet and I think: "Hey wait a second, this doesn't feel right -- this guy hasn't done this before ... oh well, lets ship it" -- and, lo and behold, I see some rockets. What do you think?

Edit: I just noticed it's rather a small squeeze size OOP, which makes me think he's pretty strong here.

Edit #2: Got about 1.2k hands in today and made a profit of about $45. Also worked off another part of deposit bonus so ...

BR: $461.42

Will take shots at NL25 when $550; though it's going to take awhile to hit it (unless I keep running like I did today).

Another 1000 hands done today with some losses; but overall feel like I played fine. I've now hit 25K recorded hands in HEM, so I thought I'd post my graph. Seems I'm running quite far under EV, and think I'd have an average of 3.24bb/100 or so if I was running accordingly (but I'm not, so it's negative). Still: it's encouraging to know that I've made the right decisions in the right places.

This is partly FR (first 15k) and the rest SH; and about 90% NL10 and 10% NL25. The big drop 19-21K was mostly bad play and tilting: I was looking at my graph too much and it was making me play erratically.

Tried out the "fast forward" poker on party today (zoom eq.), which seems to be working pretty smooth. For some reason my HEM1 doesn't update fast enough when I play, and I can never see the stats of the hand I'm actually playing. Is it likely that this is a platform problem for the moment (since it's new)? Or is it more likely something wrong with my HEM config? Would be great if someone could help me on this .. want to play some rush :).

BR: $437.06

Just had a terrible session. Playing like an idiot then went on rush without a HUD and gave away a few buy-ins. So sick of NL10, I just want NL25 already. Balls. Regardless:

BR: $379

Need to make sure that before next session I'm calmer and ready to play. It's just so frustrating playing at micros ... how do you guys deal with it? Like, I feel if I was playing a higher limit I'd have way more patience and incentive to study; but I just never get up because it takes so long to grind up from the bottom. Sigh.

Edit: make that $366

Hi mate...Subscribed!

I don't think that there are any HUDs working with Fast Forward yet cos it's so new. I'm tempted to give it a go anyway myself, although I play more FR.

Anyways best of luck at the tables!

Cool blog. I have just started playing NL10 again after nearly going busto. I feel your pain. It can feel like such slow progress some times. Do you use a stop loss?

Originally posted by clandestineAl
Cool blog. I have just started playing NL10 again after nearly going busto. I feel your pain. It can feel like such slow progress some times. Do you use a stop loss?

Hey clandestineAl, and thanks. I don't use a stop loss (or haven't been) because I always thought it didn't affect me when I lost --- probably because I don't get visibly angry and break stuff. But I'm slowly realising that even though I may think I'm calm and collected, I'm still tilting like crazy. After losing a couple of buy-ins or something I keep checking BR/session stats while playing (I think a few guys do this right) which obviously must affect the way I'm playing hugely. Chasing losses while convincing myself I'm playing the same way I always do. I think it would probably be for the best if I did stop loss at 2+ BI for the moment -- how about you?

How's NL10 treating you atm?

Originally posted by cufc37
Hi mate...Subscribed!

I don't think that there are any HUDs working with Fast Forward yet cos it's so new. I'm tempted to give it a go anyway myself, although I play more FR.

Anyways best of luck at the tables!

Maybe I'll see you there! I didn't realise it was something that required updates and so on. I read on HEM forums that partypoker doesn't actually write the hands to the drive accurately or fast enough in fastforward poker, hence the delay in the HUD. Hope it gets resolved.

----

Anyway, serious respect to all the players out there who have grinded from the micros up: never have I encountered something requiring so much patience. But, at the end of the day, it is enjoyable; and the skills that we have to learn to beat limits are probably the kind of skills that it's handy to have in life anyway.

Day off from poker today, gotta clean my house up before I move out. But what do you guys think about this hand on the flop? Both players unknown.

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.10(BB) Replayer
SB ($3.38)
BB ($18.13)
UTG ($5)
UTG+1 ($12.44)
CO ($1.14)
Hero ($13.97)

Dealt to Hero A♦ 4♦

fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.25, SB raises to $0.40, BB calls $0.30, Hero calls $0.15

FLOP ($1.20) 2♠ 5♦ J♦

SB bets $1.20, BB calls $1.20, Hero calls $1.20

TURN ($4.80) 2♠ 5♦ J♦ 2♥

SB bets $1.78 (AI), BB raises to $3.90, Hero calls $3.90

RIVER ($14.38) 2♠ 5♦ J♦ 2♥ J♥

BB bets $6.40, Hero folds

The SB is clearly fishy I think, so his RR to me in these situations usually means he's quite strong. But even if his range was really quite narrow, like TT+,AJs+,AQo+, we got 52% equity. When the BB calls pre-flop I put a lot of PP in his range, also some hands that play nicely multiway. His call on the flop I think he could be doing with 22,55,66-99 and maybe TT (but I think he raises this pre-flop), and QJs, TJs etc. We have decent equity against this range too. Do you think I should just RR here with the BB so deep? Looking back I think I should every time. Turn I think is a always call on pot + implied vs TJs+,55-TT (but maybe even narrower like 55,TT and ofc maybe even 22 but why would he RR here? I don't think ever 22).

Anyway, good luck at the tables all.

Just looked over my hand database for a bit and was shocked and appalled to see how many bad calls I've been making in situations where I'm clearly beat. Somehow I often seem to find a way to make it reasonable to call; and that usually involves some thinking along these lines:

Excuses to call when I know I'm beat:

(1) "Well, he could have a random busted draw when he bets this river 2/3 pot after he's called every street I've bet with my TPTK; better call it and find out ... [Villain shows three of a kind] ... Oh yeah that makes sense ... shit."

I.e. the old 'he could possibly have a busted draw in any situation that I feel like calling in" excuse.

(2) "Well I've already put so much in the pot with this semi-bluff, so I've probably got the right implied odds to call his shove here ... I mean 5+6.32 is ... err ... 11.32 and then the additional 2.25 .... the square root of the implied err ... asdfasdfasmmadfjsd --- whatever: I CALL!! [Villain shows AA] ... oh balls, I got like 18% equity vs. his range? Damn."

I.e. the old 'couldn't be bothered to work out the odds but I called anyway because I like the colour red and I think I'm good" excuse.

(3) "This guy is a total fish and has been shoving over flops with all kinds of crap --- he did it with a gut shot in that other hand! I'm going to totally outplay him and call him with my 2nd pair haha ... [Fish shows TPTK] ... eh ..."

I.e. the old "fish play all kinds of crap so I'm just going to call everything all the fucking time -- I mean: I deserve his stack, right?" excuse.

All classics, I'm sure.

---

In light of this searching analysis I'm going to set a new target for the next few weeks:

Post 5+ hands I folded when I am quite clearly beat -- hands that I'd normally I'd spew call for any of the aforementioned reasons.

Good luck all, thanks for reading (also feel free to post hands for discussion or something if you want -- I mean, mine are all pretty boring TBH).

Personally I think a raise with the combo draw is no bad thing. SB might fold better Ax, or maybe even TT and even if he calls, then you've got good equity, as you say. You take the initiative and being IP can check behind for a free card vs BB on the turn if you don't hit. Plus you're disguising the hand and building the pot in case you do hit. That said, I'm just another on the slow road through the microstakes, so what do I know?

Originally posted by ains21

(2) "Well I've already put so much in the pot with this semi-bluff, so I've probably got the right implied odds to call his shove here ... I mean 5+6.32 is ... err ... 11.32 and then the additional 2.25 .... the square root of the implied err ... asdfasdfasmmadfjsd --- whatever: I CALL!! [Villain shows AA] ... oh balls, I got like 18% equity vs. his range? Damn."

I.e. the old 'couldn't be bothered to work out the odds but I called anyway because I like the colour red and I think I'm good" excuse.

Are you seriously trying to suggest that this is not a good reason to call??? I could have sworn that I read it in one of the strategy articles...although I thought blue was the colour to call with!

Hey Ainis, read your posts and hands and found many of my own playing lines and problems im facing. Would be great to discuss hands and talk about poker in general, added you to the community so send me your skype;)

Originally posted by cufc37
Personally I think a raise with the combo draw is no bad thing. SB might fold better Ax, or maybe even TT and even if he calls, then you've got good equity, as you say. You take the initiative and being IP can check behind for a free card vs BB on the turn if you don't hit. Plus you're disguising the hand and building the pot in case you do hit. That said, I'm just another on the slow road through the microstakes, so what do I know?

See I need to think about things like this: taking initiative and having the option to check behind the turn. I need to learn to plan. In this hand though I can't ever see myself not shipping it on any turn if he calls RR, except maybe another J or 2 if he has 55 here and I'm drawing dead. But I don't really know. I guess it's not really a great hand for analysis: without stats we can't know there tendencies and I should probably just shove flop --- JT,QJ,KJ and maybe even AJ may fold there.

Originally posted by cufc37
Are you seriously trying to suggest that this is not a good reason to call??? I could have sworn that I read it in one of the strategy articles...although I thought blue was the colour to call with!

So that's where I've been going wrong!

Originally posted by Yellowteea
Hey Ainis, read your posts and hands and found many of my own playing lines and problems im facing. Would be great to discuss hands and talk about poker in general, added you to the community so send me your skype

Hey yellowtea, will look at the community thing now and sort it out. I don't have a headset atm and no laptop so cannot skype until I get back home this week. But will be good to discuss things; really need to start crushing.

Is there any others out there who'd be up for some kind of hand discussion every now and then? Or just talking about concepts or whatever? Message me or whatever if there is!

Good luck all.

Originally posted by ains21

Originally posted by clandestineAl
Cool blog. I have just started playing NL10 again after nearly going busto. I feel your pain. It can feel like such slow progress some times. Do you use a stop loss?

Hey clandestineAl, and thanks. I don't use a stop loss (or haven't been) because I always thought it didn't affect me when I lost --- probably because I don't get visibly angry and break stuff. But I'm slowly realising that even though I may think I'm calm and collected, I'm still tilting like crazy. After losing a couple of buy-ins or something I keep checking BR/session stats while playing (I think a few guys do this right) which obviously must affect the way I'm playing hugely. Chasing losses while convincing myself I'm playing the same way I always do. I think it would probably be for the best if I did stop loss at 2+ BI for the moment -- how about you?

How's NL10 treating you atm?

So far so good. I am using pretty aggro BRM. Only 18 buy ins so I was only play three tables. Now I have 20 buy ins I will start playing 4. As for a stop loss I am using the 2 buy in idea. However if I really feel that I made the correct play then I will allow myself to move down a limit and play some more during that session. That way I still give myself a chance to turn the session around but without as big a risk.

Another awful session this morning, another buy-in or so down. I've stopped for the day because I'm moving back home but will probably get some volume in tomorrow. I have to post one very embarrassing hand in the hope that it'll stop me from ever doing it again. I call it: "Feelin' lucky despite the odds" -- reminiscent of the above excuses, I know.

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.10(BB) Replayer
SB ($6.85)
BB ($16.71)
UTG ($1.81)
UTG+1 ($13.98)
Hero ($10)
BTN ($12.11)

Dealt to Hero 5♣ 6♣

fold, UTG+1 raises to $0.30, Hero calls $0.30, fold, fold, fold

FLOP ($0.75) 4♣ J♣ 7♥

UTG+1 bets $0.40, Hero raises to $1.45, UTG+1 calls $1.05

TURN ($3.65) 4♣ J♣ 7♥ T♥

UTG+1 bets $12.23 (AI), Hero calls $8.25 (AI)

RIVER ($20.15) 4♣ J♣ 7♥ T♥ 4♠

UTG+1 shows J♦ T♣
(Pre 63%, Flop 49.3%, Turn 68.2%)

Hero shows 5♣ 6♣
(Pre 37%, Flop 50.7%, Turn 31.8%)

UTG+1 wins $19.15

Yeah, I don't know what I was thinking. I am getting terrible odds; I know I am getting terrible odds. I should fold; I know I should fold. Yet, despite all this, for some stupid reason I click "call".

These are the kind of mistakes I really need to cut out of my game: irrational call-downs where I'm just hoping to get lucky. Need to get into the long-term mindset, and forget about down swings.

Here's quite a cool hand I saw today which made me laugh anyway:

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.10(BB) Replayer
SB ($10)
BB ($9.27)
Hero ($15.58)
CO ($5.48)
BTN ($12.82)

Dealt to Hero A♥ K♠

Hero raises to $0.30, CO calls $0.30, BTN calls $0.30, fold, BB calls $0.20

FLOP ($1.25) J♥ T♦ 9♠

BB checks, Hero checks, CO bets $0.10, BTN calls $0.10, BB raises to $0.30, Hero folds, CO calls $0.20, BTN calls $0.20

TURN ($2.15) J♥ T♦ 9♠ 7♣

BB checks, CO checks, BTN checks

RIVER ($2.15) J♥ T♦ 9♠ 7♣ 5♥

BB bets $0.20, CO calls $0.20, BTN calls $0.20

CO shows Q♠ T♠
(Pre 34%, Flop 35.0%, Turn 33.3%)

BTN shows Q♣ T♣
(Pre 33%, Flop 30.0%, Turn 33.3%)

BB shows Q♥ T♥
(Pre 33%, Flop 35.0%, Turn 33.3%)

CO wins $0.87
BTN wins $0.87
BB wins $0.88

I remember thinking there's probably a queen or two around considering, so not much point calling with my GS. Never seen three of the same hands at showdown before though :).

Hope everyone else is playing better than me.

Hey Ains,

I have recently started taking online poker as a serious commitment of time and money and have sarted at NL10. Yes it can be a grind but I think the foundation of our skills we will build coming up through the limits will be well worth the time. Keep at it.

Defo think it very important not to be too results orientated at this point too, just work on our game and let the rest take care of itself in due course.

Would like to Skype and discuss all things NL10. Have sent you a request in community, send me a Skype adress (also waiting on a mic atm.)

Keep working fella.
Luck,
MD