3 bet pot OOP

Originally posted by EmanuelC16

Originally posted by Farmarchist
Just a few questions:

- Preflop I think we are better off calling if you are choosing between 3bet FOR VALUE or a flat. A 3bet for value would be too thin. Though our hand doesn't play that great vs an MP range so I prefer (and I also think that's why hero did 3bet) a 3bet AS A BLUFF.

- Postflop I don't see enough value so I would play my hand as a bluffcatcher and def. X/C F and X/decide turn. So I agree with Emanuel here.

Actually, preflop 3betting is not as straight forward as value or bluff. What you mostly do is to 3bet to create a more profitable situation than calling or folding. Your opponent could call only better but play so badly postflop that your 3bet is still better than a fold and better than a flat because you rely less on actually hitting your hand. That's just a simple example.

Furthermore, if you have a reasonably wide 3betting range, people either have to start calling with more marginal hands or you end up printing money. For example, if you usually 3bet 12% from SB, I am definitely flatting worse than KJo so you might say you get value. If I don't call worse than that you just print money from my folds so that's also good.

On the topic of preflop 3bet for value or bluff: How do you decide whether you get value or you are bluffing with a hand?

Hmmm yeah there is again something interesting in what you say but I ask you the same question: How can we ever know when a 3bet is better than a flat or fold with KJo?

In this hand it is a bluff if we 3bet. The guy is in MP and he should now that we are not 3betting light vs MP unless he has a good sample on us. If he is kinda fishy then he could indeed call QJs and TJs so it could be for value too yes. Though, in my eyes the definition of a 3bet for value is also when you plan to go broke over a 4bet. Vs someone who calls a lot of 3bets and only 4bet realllly tight it's another story, there KJ could be a 3bet for value. Most regs on the other hand other fold or 4bet OOP so we can only 3bet FOR VALUE if we are planning to go broke over a 4bet. I hope this makes sense.

In this exact hand I think all 3 options are OK. A flat could be good because he seems very active and thus could have a wider range then most regs. Because we don't know his postfloptendencies all too well I prefer to 3bet or fold though. So to sumarize I like to 3bet bluff in this spot with blockers and get to know him a bit more. My plan is to fold to a 4bet.

Against someone with 30 PFR we probably have some value unless he plays some very weird style (like 10% EP and MP, 30% CO and 100% BU and SB open raise). There are some that do that...

How can we ever know when a 3bet is better than a flat or fold with KJo?

If you flat you have to outplay your opponent(s) postflop without hitting. In practice, you have to do about the same when you 3bet but here's the difference:
- you can win the pot preflop;
- you maximize chances you will have position postflop
- you also 'bluff' others out of the pot/isolate the raiser.
- you don't get squeezed (you can get cold 4bet but that doesn't happen as often nor is it as hard to play against)

Everyone knows about isolating limpers but there are quite a few cases when people mistakenly open wide from early position (most fish and bad regulars) that you can isolate them with a 3bet.

Your definition is correct if you are facing a regular that only 4bets or folds OOP but most don't do that. Also, if you (3bettor) are aggressive enough and wide enough with your 3bets, your opponent will eventually start calling OOP or 4bet/fold so often that you have a profitable 3bet/5bet with some broadway hands, smaller pairs or suited Ax hands. That said, when you get called, you don't get it in ahead but overall you make money from the times he folds.

Is it a bluff 3bet or value 3bet with Ax or broadways and not fold against a 4bet?

You are on the right track but it's not quite complete because you take into account just one part which is preflop getting 4bet or getting a fold. You don't consider getting called or what his 4betting range would actually be. Don't get me wrong, it's where I was about a year ago so I understand it's a bit tougher to grasp but there's more to it than value/bluff with a hand, especially when equity is so dynamic.