early game - A8 facing c/r turn

it depends on your stats.
if you have 65+ fold to 3bet and high cbet stats. In this case, he will just flat with KK+.
if you fire a lot of second barell he can click it back OTT and push OTR with air and in this case you can call OTT and OTR.

my fold to 3bet is lower than that and my cbet frequency is balanced.

I agree that if I call the turn I gotta call almost every river and at the moment I made a mistake.

I am still undecided wich action is the best here , b/f , b/c or even check.

Hi all,

I'd say betting the turn is all but mandatory. So much value to be gotten from 8x hands that are all in his range IMO.

Vs the c/r I think going into calldown mode is fine. Only hands that really beat us are Qx :diamond:

He could check/call turn with Qxd.

"Only hands that really beat us are Qx Diamond Diamond"
I think some players could play sets with this line.
But if he is good reg, he might don`t call 22,66 pre flop.

He can have a set but it's just not enough combos.

BTW it's profitable to call 66 and 22 from BB. From SB it's a clear fold vs a 2.5x though.

According to me, it isn`t profitable to call only for set with this effective stacks, because the range of CO is very very wide. And low pocket pairs doesn`t have playability post flop OOP, when they don`t hit set.

Think about it this way: 3betting the hand is out of the question IMO because of a lack of playability + blockers. So our choices are between folding and calling.

We need to call an extra 150 to win a pot that will be 350. However we only win the pot around 1/10 times when we hit a set (it's discounted because sometimes we lose a big pot with a set).

So out of our 150 chips, 150-35 or 115 chips need to be recovered each time. That means each time we hit a set, we need to make 1150 chips. So we need to stack our opponent only once out of every 3 times on average. Even vs a wide range, this should be pretty easy. For example here our opponent (us) have quite a weak hand yet we are considering (in fact we believe it is best) to stack off here.

Not sure if my math is right there, hope it is!

Originally posted by PaPi92
According to me, it isn`t profitable to call only for set with this effective stacks, because the range of CO is very very wide. And low pocket pairs doesn`t have playability post flop OOP, when they don`t hit set.

Yes, I had exactly the same way of thinking. There is this call20 "rule", so to call a bet/raise, we need to have 20 times the amount of bet in front of both of us, so 150*20=3000, which is just exactly what we would have. But since CO is so wide, I'm also usually 3bet-ing these kind of hands. He also might be pot controlling a lot of times, and it's hard to influence the pot size oop profitable. And I have to fold way too often with a 3. or 4. pair to the board. Also it's okay that here we hit the nuts, but the wider our range is, the less likely that we flop a top pair, or a good draw. But with second pair we are rarely stacking off imo.

So I guess it's an interesting question, and I'm still thinking that call or 3bet is the better.

Originally posted by chenny8888
Think about it this way: 3betting the hand is out of the question IMO because of a lack of playability + blockers. So our choices are between folding and calling.

Blockers are of course good, but I think the wider range he has, the less useful it is. I mean against a 40-50% steal range. We are usually making him fold like almost everything except a top 20-25%. So half of the times we win the dead money, which is good. If he is calling and we cbet we win the pot like 30% (just said a number) of the times, which is also good. And we don't even have to hit. But really it's just my opinion, I might be wrong, but I 3bet almost every time my pockets.

do you 3bet 72o as well? blockers are good for balancing. If he has a wide range and we can 3bet profitably any two cards, that's one thing.. but if he is never calling a 3bet and is only continuing with 4betshoving or folding then it's much much better to 3bet blockers to his continuing range (making it more likely he has a weaker hand).

From SB he should fold a low pair, from BB defense is very profitable IMO.

Originally posted by chenny8888
From SB he should fold a low pair, from BB defense is very profitable IMO.

okay, I'll give it a try. I'm never shy of taking a better player's advice

First about pockets imo is profitable to call pp from BB and also from SB( if we have like 2k or less best is imo to shove pp)
About profitabilty play with pp when we call.. we hit set or open ended str8 draw like ~ 1/8,5 times so imo if we have both ~ efective stacks 10x raise or deeper is imo a call in this case 2,5 k... Also with pp we can and should some % of time ch/r some dry boards when villain cbets like A75, K63 etc
So as cheny said I dont like 3 beting pp in this spot except if we r ok to call 4bet ai

About hand
I think solid thinking player will ch/ r flush draws + overs on flop to max feq
When that said I think his range is stronger when call then ch/ r on flop

Turn is interesting card is hiting Hero perceptive range big % of time and is also a good bareling card so imo in villains shoes is best to extract value from hero's range with ch... As I said Q is good bareling card for hero and it hit descent % of time hero's range but it also hit descent % of time villains range so is good card to bluff with cr/ ai (with this ef stack sizes)
THE MAIN PROBLEM here imo is that villain didnt cr/ ai here, he practicly min raise leaving ~2/3 pot size bet behind, so if I give him credits that he knows what he is doing and he is not spewtard I think Hero is crushed here and fold is best
I dont think that villains bluf enough % of times in this spot to make stacking off with a8 profitable here

When all that said I prefer to take pot contol line with my hand either on turn cbet/ch/blufcatch any river or maybe just ch behind on flop to keep pot small and induce spewing

Originally posted by TheRebuz
he practicly min raise leaving ~2/3 pot size bet behind, so if I give him credits that he knows what he is doing and he is not spewtard I think Hero is crushed here and fold is best

Sometimes I do the same thing. I make it look like as if I was pot commited with air, but I'm not, since I have air. But this makes it look extremely strong, so I usually realize much bigger FE on people who are thinking in ranges.

Originally posted by AceSteph

Originally posted by TheRebuz
he practicly min raise leaving ~2/3 pot size bet behind, so if I give him credits that he knows what he is doing and he is not spewtard I think Hero is crushed here and fold is best

Sometimes I do the same thing. I make it look like as if I was pot commited with air, but I'm not, since I have air. But this makes it look extremely strong, so I usually realize much bigger FE on people who are thinking in ranges.

sometimes... sure... but i dont hink that this is the spot when u do that play

but start with the beggining of the hand...

- WHAT RANGE DO U CALL IN VILLAIN SPOT IN BB WITH THOSE EFECTIVE STACK SIZES?
- WITH WHAT PART OF THAT RANGE U CHECK/CALL THAT FLOP AND THEN CH/minR THAT TURN => THAT IS WORSE THEN A8? (i cant see much hands there if there r any, and tbh i dont think that that is good move(profitable) to make in this spot with air)

other good Q is how villain sees our hero do they have history or is unknow, i really doubt it that good reg without any history make that line and spews in that spot in 8$ MTT with worse hand that A8 descent % of time to make calling off turn and river profitable

tbh in game (while multitabling) i rarely fold A8 there on turn, if i bet again on turn i bet to get it in (i probable most often shove over his min raise on turn) but as far i can rember i think i'm pretty much crushed almost always in that spot #leakalert

I think he can think check/minraise looks particularly strong, so he takes this line with T9, 97 type hands as well as some air* (note that he has to check/call flop with these air hands, so specifically some ace high hands here)

As for hands that call us preflop:

I expect defense with a range that looks something like:

Axs, A9o-AJo, KJ+, 22-88, QTs+, QJo, 76s+, 97s+.

So on the turn his range looks something like 22, 66, 88, KQ, QJ (maybe), 97s, T9s, and lets say A9o. We have around 40% against this range.

Originally posted by chenny8888
From SB he should fold a low pair, from BB defense is very profitable IMO.

Even it`s +EV to flat 22 in this spot, it`s so close. So it can`t be VERY profitable.

It`s hard to calculate it exactly and it isn`t even sure that it`s profitable.

Originally posted by PaPi92

Originally posted by chenny8888
From SB he should fold a low pair, from BB defense is very profitable IMO.

Even it`s +EV to flat 22 in this spot, it`s so close. So it can`t be VERY profitable.

It`s hard to calculate it exactly and it isn`t even sure that it`s profitable.

Originally posted by chenny8888
Think about it this way: 3betting the hand is out of the question IMO because of a lack of playability + blockers. So our choices are between folding and calling.

We need to call an extra 150 to win a pot that will be 350. However we only win the pot around 1/10 times when we hit a set (it's discounted because sometimes we lose a big pot with a set).

So out of our 150 chips, 150-35 or 115 chips need to be recovered each time. That means each time we hit a set, we need to make 1150 chips. So we need to stack our opponent only once out of every 3 times on average. Even vs a wide range, this should be pretty easy. For example here our opponent (us) have quite a weak hand yet we are considering (in fact we believe it is best) to stack off here.

Not sure if my math is right there, hope it is!