11$ bigger FT JJ

Hi,

you have enough money left so play for his stack. I would not get away my hand

best regards,

Hi all,

When he 3bets from the SB he's going to have a huge amount of hands that he 3bet/5bets IMO, hands that we crush. So I still prefer 4betting here. If it was some positional setup where he has a lot more 3bet/folds (for example CO vs BU, etc.) then I like your flat preflop a lot more... but then you'd be OOP of course. Maybe also if his 3bet range was tighter (like CO vs BB), then your preflop play again is better.

Postflop: fistpump call turn! His play is a lot weaker in my eyes than bet/bet/shove (vs shove on the river we have a very close decision on a blank!)

What is the bottom of our call range here?

T9s or so I think.

No this is not good advice imo.
This is a Final table and the guy who 3bet us has a good stack and is pretty good 3th in chips. There is no way he can get out of line here ever if he has some clue what to do in this heavy icm situations. He can not 3bet wide here because you can easely 4bet him them with anything because when he want to stack of preflop he has to have probably around 75% vs hero range here.
On the turn if he has some clue it is a snap fold. when he knows what he is doing he has like always qq+ here because any other hand would be terrible to do this with in such a icm heavy spot.
I think his shove on the turn is completly fine because he have too push out any drawing hand here when he has an overpair because busting now would be so terrible.

I like the call preflop because when you 4bet here you are turning your hand into a bluf because when villian has some clue he wil only shove with JJ+ (maybe AK when he think you 4bet a lot here)

He has 13.3% 3bet over a pretty large sample size. His range isn't actually 13.3%, because most people's 3bet % is distributed most heavily towards SB or BU 3betting, and here he is facing a late position open. I agree with you that he must be considering ICM factors here, but I think his range is simply WAY too wide for us to worry about QQ+ (it's possibly up to 20% preflop here).

Yes, I was a little surprised that this is a snapcall and even with JT and stuff I'm supposed to call. So I mostly agree with onmybike.

On the big FTs people usually don't get very much out of line, even regs, because even them this is a good amount of money. Btw no one got out of line during this FT, everyone had a hand, when it came to showdown.

My problem is also the ICM factor, and he was a good player, who must consider this as well. He only saw me showing good hands at showdowns. Before this hand he only barrelled 2x out of 7 times, so he is not that willing to finish his bluffs. And it wasn't even FT situation. The second part that I have really never seen him to do anything crazy when it came to showdown. And pushing here with air or something that has small EQ against my range would be crazy with so many shortstacks. And I was also folding more than 60% to cbets. I was also folding some % to 3bets, so my range cannot look weak in his eyes, and I was also not famous of making tricky plays every single time. So I wasn't basically a "float-machine". That's why I thought that he wants to max value, and doesn't want to get "rivered" where he has to c/f, or c/decide in an ICM heavy spot. So he could have just pushed monsters here. Since it makes his range look like weaker. But I was thinking that I'm a level above him and thought that this is more likely value, than bluff in this spot, so I just folded.

I see Chenny's point, and if it wasn't a bigger final table I would have snap called. But just because they were more agressive before, in the endgame, I still think that on the FT they are going to use tighter ranges against the chipleader, than they did before in the last 300 hands.

Originally posted by chenny8888
He has 13.3% 3bet over a pretty large sample size. His range isn't actually 13.3%, because most people's 3bet % is distributed most heavily towards SB or BU 3betting, and here he is facing a late position open. I agree with you that he must be considering ICM factors here, but I think his range is simply WAY too wide for us to worry about QQ+ (it's possibly up to 20% preflop here).

No, this is not good imo.
You try too find a reason why you advice before is good, but you say different thinks. First you say that most of is range is willing to 3bet/5bet (wat is true i think) and now you say he will 3bet 20%.
Then i think you do a bad job with getting information out of the stats, I 3bet late in toernement a lot like this guy but i SNAP fold AJo here for example on the SB.
I did a lot of FT stuff back in the days when i played mtt-sng and maybe to get my point: When hero push allin with A2s (and shows to the table) when de SB knows what he is doing he have to fold KK. (you can even check this with nash of sit en go wiz if you do not believe me)

Originally posted by onmybike

Originally posted by chenny8888
He has 13.3% 3bet over a pretty large sample size. His range isn't actually 13.3%, because most people's 3bet % is distributed most heavily towards SB or BU 3betting, and here he is facing a late position open. I agree with you that he must be considering ICM factors here, but I think his range is simply WAY too wide for us to worry about QQ+ (it's possibly up to 20% preflop here).

No, this is not good imo.
You try too find a reason why you advice before is good, but you say different thinks. First you say that most of is range is willing to 3bet/5bet (wat is true i think) and now you say he will 3bet 20%.
Then i think you do a bad job with getting information out of the stats, I 3bet late in toernement a lot like this guy but i SNAP fold AJo here for example on the SB.
I did a lot of FT stuff back in the days when i played mtt-sng and maybe to get my point: When hero push allin with A2s (and shows to the table) when de SB knows what he is doing he have to fold KK. (you can even check this with nash of sit en go wiz if you do not believe me)

I'm not contradicting myself at any point. I said he's 3betting very wide (true) and 3bet/5betting enough of his range for us to 4bet/call. Both of these make perfect sense in any moderately balanced strategy.

As for you: you 3bet a lot (OK seems fine), but you fold AJo??? What do you choose to 3bet? For me AJo is an easy defend vs fairly wide openers, or a 3bet/fold if my opponent is slightly tighter. We have blockers, and it plays OK enough in 3bet pots (assuming villain's calling range is moderately wide, and villain 4bets most hands that dominate us).

To do a ICM calculation like that we'd have to have a good look at the payout structures (even typical payout structures will do). I suspect that to not be the case here as I feel the tournaments are top-heavy enough.. however it is possible if we have a flat-ish payout structure. All the same, I think this is a call against his range on the turn because the pot odds + inherent bloatedness of the pot (it's not just a preflop pot) well covers the ICM tax levied (although this is very low for us, as we have our opponent WELL covered).

Please continue this argument! It's quite interesting and we're bringing up a decent amount of good points.

Just for fun.

You see me with the following stats (250 hand):
29/25/11.4 steal: 66%
f to 3bet: about 60%
f to cbet: 80%

You 3bet me preflop in this situation, you are SB.

1. How does you range look like?
2. What do you cbet? Do you play c/r with something?
3. What range do you put me on?
4. What do you shove the turn with considering all the small stacks and that I fold 80% to cbets?

Thanks in advance!

Originally posted by AceSteph
Just for fun.

You see me with the following stats (250 hand):
29/25/11.4 steal: 66%
f to 3bet: about 60%
f to cbet: 80%

You 3bet me preflop in this situation, you are SB.

1. How does you range look like?
2. What do you cbet? Do you play c/r with something?
3. What range do you put me on?
4. What do you shove the turn with considering all the small stacks and that I fold 80% to cbets?

Thanks in advance!

If I had a confident sample on all of those stats:

1. Every single hand except the good ones, flat the good ones.
2. Cbet all air, c/r all nuts.
3. 99, 88, Tx possibly, ace highs, flushdraws (suited broadways etc). I think even with 80% f2cbet villains still float ace highs on T22.
4. Pretty strong range... of draws.

In actuality I would just have a decent amount of bluffs on the turn, because making critical decisions based f2cbet, even after 300 hands, is just too small a sample. Card/board distribution are too important and vary too much. Postflop stats in general are very unreliable for tournaments.

i think villain range is
(from more likely to less likely)
JJ-AA=>,AQ/AKdd/hh
=>=> AThh
=>=>=>88-99=>=>=>KQdd/hh if he 3bets with them pre (which i dont think so)

i would prefer as cheny says 4bet call line here preflop cos stack sizes and stuff (+ i'm ok if he 3bet fold AQ/AK cos ICM tbh)
- as played Q to hero what was your plan when u just call flop
a) if he had checked to u on turn
b) if he make like 40-60% pot size bet on turn? (if he made for ex. 50% pot bet on turn u will have 50% pot bet efective stacks behind)
-also what was your plan for post flop if Q/K/A hit on flop?

imo with those ef. stack sizes there isn't other play with JJ/TT in hero spot then get it in preflop and run good

Okay, thanks a lot chenny!
I just wanted to have this hand examined from every possible angle that's why my questions.

- as played Q to hero what was your plan when u just call flop
a) if he had checked to u on turn
b) if he make like 40-60% pot size bet on turn? (if he made for ex. 50% pot bet on turn u will have 50% pot bet efective stacks behind)

a) after checking I would have checked behind I guess. Since he was agressive enough I think that he's always betting his value hands on the turn and don't want to give me free cards. So I don't expect him to have too many valuehand, and with draws I think he would rather bet than c/c. So at this point I put him mostly on air, so I'm checking and calling a river bet from him (unless an ace comes) or I'm valuebetting.
b) I'm calling. If the pushes river I'm folding probably. I'm not assuming that seeing basically no FE he's going to finish his bluff. And the other thing that based on 300 hands (it's a good sample in MTT) I have seen him play and he had never a bad hand at showdown, or crazy bluffs, so I'm not expecting him to start on FT with that many short stacks.

also what was your plan for post flop if Q/K/A hit on flop?
It might have been a bad plan, but I was going to call a cbet either way with his 3bet% and cbet% and if he continues I was going to give up on boards with an overcard.

The other thing I was thinking, that I thought that my range looks fairly strong. I would fold A high to even a simple half pot bet, so no reason to push against them. And I'm not sure he knows I'm folding Tx here, or middle pairs. That's why I was thinking that he thinks that I'm putting him on a weak range (as we do now) and I'm calling him off much lighter, since it seems weaker. And that's why he could shove monsters very easily. Or am I just outleveling myself?

One last thing. After the 3bet would you have pushed or just make it let's say 1,500,000. I guess push might be better because of the ICM factor, right?

Yeah don't fold ace high on the flop, if you hit your overcard vs an aggressive opponent, he will continue to barrel and give you his stack.

Otherwise your entire strategy is good. I am also part of the "call turn fold river" camp, though it's kinda close on this board..

But vs an overbet shove I'm snapping.